3 ms·

It's not just you. I heard it was great from coworkers and friends, but I also find the characters pretty flat and the plot predictable. I always get this vag

by bokchoi 15y ago

It's not just you. I heard it was great from coworkers and friends, but I also find the characters pretty flat and the plot predictable. I always get this vaguely racist feeling from these medieval fantasy worlds -- in this case form the way the grassland people are depicted as backward with gifts of snakes at weddings. I will say one thing it has going for it -- that theme music really stuck in my head.

jarin 15y ago
I, too, get concerned for the civil rights and public image of fictional races.
- MikeCapone 15y ago
  Potential issues can arise when fictional races are transparently based on real ethnic groups, though.
  - jarin 15y ago
    If you look closely though, there are people of many different real-life races among the Dothraki (I counted white, black, and asian people, not to mention Jason Momoa whose race I have no idea about). Culturally, they seem to be based on the ancient Mongols, not on any particular currently-existing culture. Not to mention that as far as I'm aware there aren't any ethnic groups who stereotypically give gifts of snakes to people. I think it's just reading way too much into a fantasy show that seems to take deliberate pains not to stereotype real-life ethnicities (except for maybe the feudal British).
    - MikeCapone 15y ago
      Well, it's not like I've written a dissertation on this and have very complex arguments, so you might be right. But what I've noticed in a broader sense is that in these types of fictional worlds, you often have the bare-chested, dark-skinned people doing barbarous things and making gutural noises. Sometimes being downright evil without much reason (because they actually enjoy it or whatever), and they mostly don't have real '3D' characters but are a plot device for violence and other uncivilized actions. They're so cookie cutter that you could see any number of them killed without really feeling anything. On the other side, you have the Northern European bunch, some of whom can be quite evil too, but usually for complex geopolitical reasons or other more human motivations. In other words, they don't do evil things just for fun or because they don't know better, but because they think they're actually doing the right thing, somehow. Their characters are usually much more developed. Maybe it's just like this because of the way our evolved brains work, and the target audience can't help but identify with a certain 'tribe'. I don't know.
      - bmelton 15y ago
        If you've only read the first book (or only watched the show), I can sort of see how you'd make that statement, but in the lands outside of Westeros, there are dark-skinned people who are wise, spiritually enlightened, and better spoken than the bulk of the 'Northern European' folks presently on the show. Further, it makes sense that a group of barbaric nomads who ride horseback on the plains would have darker pigment than those who spend their lives at court in a castle. That part isn't fantasy, it's evolution.
    - w1ntermute 15y ago
      > not to stereotype real-life ethnicities (except for maybe the feudal British). This is actually very true. The Seven Kingdoms are based on the Heptarchy (Lancaster --> Lannister, York --> Stark) and so the story is (very) loosely based upon the War of the Roses.
      - com 15y ago
        Except that the Heptarchy were East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Mercia, Northumbria (Bernicia, Deira), Sussex, Wessex (I know it's true because wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy told me ;-) But yeah, Lancaster->Lannister seemed like a good hint that the War of the Roses was the template for this dynastic struggle.
    - cpeterso 15y ago
      > there are people of many different real-life races among the Dothraki (I counted white, black, and asian people, not to mention Jason Momoa whose race I have no idea about). I thought most of the non-brown-skinned people traveling with the Dothraki were slaves received as tribute or taken in battle?
MikeCapone 15y ago
> I will say one thing it has going for it -- that theme music really stuck in my head. Agreed. I love the theme music. Another show that has great music is John Adams. I bought the soundtrack. I LOVED that miniseries. Highly recommended if you haven't seen it.
baddox 15y ago
Wait a minute: you thought the plot was predictable? How far in advance were you able to predict things? Of all the faults in the books and TV show, that's a new one to me. As for the racial stereotypes, I can see what people mean, but how exactly do you portray different (fictional) ethnicities without evoking those responses?
- fragsworth 15y ago
  Yeah that is a strange thing to complain about. Of all its faults, I can't really say GoT was predictable.

by bokchoi 15y ago

jarin 15y ago

I, too, get concerned for the civil rights and public image of fictional races.

MikeCapone 15y ago
Potential issues can arise when fictional races are transparently based on real ethnic groups, though.
- jarin 15y ago
  If you look closely though, there are people of many different real-life races among the Dothraki (I counted white, black, and asian people, not to mention Jason Momoa whose race I have no idea about). Culturally, they seem to be based on the ancient Mongols, not on any particular currently-existing culture. Not to mention that as far as I'm aware there aren't any ethnic groups who stereotypically give gifts of snakes to people. I think it's just reading way too much into a fantasy show that seems to take deliberate pains not to stereotype real-life ethnicities (except for maybe the feudal British).
  - MikeCapone 15y ago
    Well, it's not like I've written a dissertation on this and have very complex arguments, so you might be right. But what I've noticed in a broader sense is that in these types of fictional worlds, you often have the bare-chested, dark-skinned people doing barbarous things and making gutural noises. Sometimes being downright evil without much reason (because they actually enjoy it or whatever), and they mostly don't have real '3D' characters but are a plot device for violence and other uncivilized actions. They're so cookie cutter that you could see any number of them killed without really feeling anything. On the other side, you have the Northern European bunch, some of whom can be quite evil too, but usually for complex geopolitical reasons or other more human motivations. In other words, they don't do evil things just for fun or because they don't know better, but because they think they're actually doing the right thing, somehow. Their characters are usually much more developed. Maybe it's just like this because of the way our evolved brains work, and the target audience can't help but identify with a certain 'tribe'. I don't know.
    - bmelton 15y ago
      If you've only read the first book (or only watched the show), I can sort of see how you'd make that statement, but in the lands outside of Westeros, there are dark-skinned people who are wise, spiritually enlightened, and better spoken than the bulk of the 'Northern European' folks presently on the show. Further, it makes sense that a group of barbaric nomads who ride horseback on the plains would have darker pigment than those who spend their lives at court in a castle. That part isn't fantasy, it's evolution.
  - w1ntermute 15y ago
    > not to stereotype real-life ethnicities (except for maybe the feudal British). This is actually very true. The Seven Kingdoms are based on the Heptarchy (Lancaster --> Lannister, York --> Stark) and so the story is (very) loosely based upon the War of the Roses.
    - com 15y ago
      Except that the Heptarchy were East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Mercia, Northumbria (Bernicia, Deira), Sussex, Wessex (I know it's true because wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy told me ;-) But yeah, Lancaster->Lannister seemed like a good hint that the War of the Roses was the template for this dynastic struggle.
  - cpeterso 15y ago
    > there are people of many different real-life races among the Dothraki (I counted white, black, and asian people, not to mention Jason Momoa whose race I have no idea about). I thought most of the non-brown-skinned people traveling with the Dothraki were slaves received as tribute or taken in battle?

MikeCapone 15y ago

> I will say one thing it has going for it -- that theme music really stuck in my head. Agreed. I love the theme music. Another show that has great music is John Adams. I bought the soundtrack. I LOVED that miniseries. Highly recommended if you haven't seen it.

baddox 15y ago

Wait a minute: you thought the plot was predictable? How far in advance were you able to predict things? Of all the faults in the books and TV show, that's a new one to me. As for the racial stereotypes, I can see what people mean, but how exactly do you portray different (fictional) ethnicities without evoking those responses?

fragsworth 15y ago
Yeah that is a strange thing to complain about. Of all its faults, I can't really say GoT was predictable.