5 ms·

Oh... people were hawking it on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27562412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27562412 https://news.ycombinato

by bb88 5y ago

Oh... people were hawking it on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27562412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27562412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27843908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27843908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27778458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27778458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27497080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27497080

criticaltinker 5y ago
Ivermectin used in a single-drug treatment regime has not shown significant benefits in a number of RCTs. However there is promising evidence of significant benefits when Ivermectin is used as part of a multi-drug treatment regime [1]. Since the beginning of the pandemic many front-line doctors have been combining multi-drug treatment regimes with early (in the symptomatic phase) treatment to successfully reduce hospitalization and death [2][3][4][5][6]. [1] Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ [2] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [3] Timing of Antiviral Treatment Initiation is Critical to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.12543 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.1... [4] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [5] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [6] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202...
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  Just take the vaccine already.
- angelzen 5y ago
  [7] Favorable outcome on viral load and culture viability using Ivermectin in early treatment of non-hospitalized patients with mild COVID-19 – A double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled trial https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v..., https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-scientist-says-covid-19-could-be-treated-for-under-1day-675612 https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-scientist-says-... Ivermectin has shown some antiviral activity in a number of credible studies, but it is by no means a miracle cure. As the virus is bound to mutate and potentially evade the current vaccines (according to none other than Pfizer CEO), developing treatments, even if imperfect, as a second line of defense, must be a very high priority.
  - hcknwscommenter 5y ago
    IF ivermectin were an actually useful treatment (huge IF), and it were actually deployed at scale, you would see an immediate rise in ivermectin resistant virus. Antivirals are very different from vaccines. They hit one target at one place in on specific binding mode, and it is easy to mutate so that the antiviral doesn't work. A vaccine produces a different repertoire of antibodies in every single person. No single mutation or even group of mutations affects the immune response in the same way from one person to another. It's bad luck that delta got so "lucky" in its enhanced transmissibility, but the vaccines are still effective against delta. An antiviral will not be effective against the next variant that comes after the antiviral is launched. Vaccines are the answer. If we need a slightly tweaked new booster for delta or lambda or whatever is next, I'm getting that and staying away from ivermectin et al.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Are you making a blanket statement that no antiviral treatment can possibly exist for long? I am not an expert, but Tamiflu is a widely available influenza antiviral. Please make a comprehension effort: I am not suggesting that Ivermectin is some sort of miracle cure. I'm simply saying that I would sleep much better at night knowing that if the mRNA vaccines are evaded through evolution (they are narrower than natural immunity), there is a secondary line of defense, ideally with multiple alternative treatments. Whether these are Ivermectin (unlikely given the data so far), fluvoxamine (recently touted in the press), remdesevir, a derivative or something completely new, I don't know. Edit. I looked up Tamiflu on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir. Alas, there are reasons to believe it not a miracle cure either. > A 2014 Cochrane Review concluded that oseltamivir does not reduce hospitalizations, and that there is no evidence of reduction in complications of influenza.[9] Two meta-analyses have concluded that benefits in those who are otherwise healthy do not outweigh its risks.[10][11] They also found little evidence regarding whether treatment changes the risk of hospitalization or death in high risk populations.
angelzen 5y ago
Not sure how to put this, but I really really hope that if a year from now we are faced with a new virus strain that evades current vaccines ('likely', as Pfizer CEO puts it), nobody is going to trawl HN submission stories and smugly point fingers to those that 'hawked' vaccines. Edit: https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronavius-variant-likely-2021-8 https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronav... Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla told Fox News on Tuesday that he believed it was "likely" a vaccine-resistant coronavirus variant would eventually emerge. "Every time that a variant appears in the world, our scientists are getting their hands around it," Bourla said. "And they are researching to see if this variant can escape the protection of our vaccine. "We haven't identified any yet, but we believe that it is likely that one day, one of them will emerge."
- bb88 5y ago
  >> Not sure how to put this, but I really really hope that if a year from now we are faced with a new virus strain that evades current vaccines ('likely', as Pfizer CEO puts it), nobody is going to trawl HN submission stories and smugly point fingers to those that 'hawked' vaccines. WTF? You really want people to die just so you can be right?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - angelzen 5y ago
    I dream of a world with less finger-pointing. Especially targeted at other people's hopes.
    - bb88 5y ago
      I dream of a world with less deaths.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  ... Wait, that would be a totally different situation, surely? The vaccine generally works quite effectively for the strains that we have _now_. There's little reason to think that ivermectin does anything much.

by bb88 5y ago

criticaltinker 5y ago

Ivermectin used in a single-drug treatment regime has not shown significant benefits in a number of RCTs. However there is promising evidence of significant benefits when Ivermectin is used as part of a multi-drug treatment regime [1]. Since the beginning of the pandemic many front-line doctors have been combining multi-drug treatment regimes with early (in the symptomatic phase) treatment to successfully reduce hospitalization and death [2][3][4][5][6]. [1] Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ [2] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [3] Timing of Antiviral Treatment Initiation is Critical to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.12543 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.1... [4] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [5] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [6] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202...

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
Just take the vaccine already.
angelzen 5y ago
[7] Favorable outcome on viral load and culture viability using Ivermectin in early treatment of non-hospitalized patients with mild COVID-19 – A double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled trial https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v..., https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-scientist-says-covid-19-could-be-treated-for-under-1day-675612 https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-scientist-says-... Ivermectin has shown some antiviral activity in a number of credible studies, but it is by no means a miracle cure. As the virus is bound to mutate and potentially evade the current vaccines (according to none other than Pfizer CEO), developing treatments, even if imperfect, as a second line of defense, must be a very high priority.
- hcknwscommenter 5y ago
  IF ivermectin were an actually useful treatment (huge IF), and it were actually deployed at scale, you would see an immediate rise in ivermectin resistant virus. Antivirals are very different from vaccines. They hit one target at one place in on specific binding mode, and it is easy to mutate so that the antiviral doesn't work. A vaccine produces a different repertoire of antibodies in every single person. No single mutation or even group of mutations affects the immune response in the same way from one person to another. It's bad luck that delta got so "lucky" in its enhanced transmissibility, but the vaccines are still effective against delta. An antiviral will not be effective against the next variant that comes after the antiviral is launched. Vaccines are the answer. If we need a slightly tweaked new booster for delta or lambda or whatever is next, I'm getting that and staying away from ivermectin et al.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Are you making a blanket statement that no antiviral treatment can possibly exist for long? I am not an expert, but Tamiflu is a widely available influenza antiviral. Please make a comprehension effort: I am not suggesting that Ivermectin is some sort of miracle cure. I'm simply saying that I would sleep much better at night knowing that if the mRNA vaccines are evaded through evolution (they are narrower than natural immunity), there is a secondary line of defense, ideally with multiple alternative treatments. Whether these are Ivermectin (unlikely given the data so far), fluvoxamine (recently touted in the press), remdesevir, a derivative or something completely new, I don't know. Edit. I looked up Tamiflu on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir. Alas, there are reasons to believe it not a miracle cure either. > A 2014 Cochrane Review concluded that oseltamivir does not reduce hospitalizations, and that there is no evidence of reduction in complications of influenza.[9] Two meta-analyses have concluded that benefits in those who are otherwise healthy do not outweigh its risks.[10][11] They also found little evidence regarding whether treatment changes the risk of hospitalization or death in high risk populations.

angelzen 5y ago

Not sure how to put this, but I really really hope that if a year from now we are faced with a new virus strain that evades current vaccines ('likely', as Pfizer CEO puts it), nobody is going to trawl HN submission stories and smugly point fingers to those that 'hawked' vaccines. Edit: https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronavius-variant-likely-2021-8 https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronav... Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla told Fox News on Tuesday that he believed it was "likely" a vaccine-resistant coronavirus variant would eventually emerge. "Every time that a variant appears in the world, our scientists are getting their hands around it," Bourla said. "And they are researching to see if this variant can escape the protection of our vaccine. "We haven't identified any yet, but we believe that it is likely that one day, one of them will emerge."

bb88 5y ago
>> Not sure how to put this, but I really really hope that if a year from now we are faced with a new virus strain that evades current vaccines ('likely', as Pfizer CEO puts it), nobody is going to trawl HN submission stories and smugly point fingers to those that 'hawked' vaccines. WTF? You really want people to die just so you can be right?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- angelzen 5y ago
  I dream of a world with less finger-pointing. Especially targeted at other people's hopes.
  - bb88 5y ago
    I dream of a world with less deaths.
rsynnott 5y ago
... Wait, that would be a totally different situation, surely? The vaccine generally works quite effectively for the strains that we have _now_. There's little reason to think that ivermectin does anything much.