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> "But he also said that, in some cases, both female guards and the boys they molest share some responsibility. > “There’s no such thing as consensual sex when

by belorn 5y ago

> "But he also said that, in some cases, both female guards and the boys they molest share some responsibility. > “There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the guys in prison are very persuasive and some of the women are very persuasive,” Wilkinson said." I guess we are still have a very long way to go on the cultural part of defining victim and perpetrator.

kevingadd 5y ago
People will go to any lengths to blame abuse on the abused instead of the abuser if it means they don't have to make changes to society :( The tendency of some to frame this sort of thing as good for boys (a sign of maturity, manhood, etc) makes it worse, kids of any gender should feel safe and not be pressured by adults into doing something they don't want to do or aren't ready for.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fortran77 5y ago
Women get away with too much in our society. Few take female abuse of men seriously. If we want real "equality" they have to bear the consequences of sexual misconduct.
- burnished 5y ago
  Why are you framing this oppositionally against women? It's weird.
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    Have you not seen this pattern when any social topic comes up on this site? The right wing kneejerk reactions come in, they dont want to solve the problem, they just want to blame "the other" to enrage people.Thats why he has to attack women instead of just defending the boys or talking about the abuse.
    - smolder 5y ago
      I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics, but I think that's pretty off topic here, and we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation of what's said" on HN. We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" simply because of how general and broad it is, which would have been my complaint, if I thought it was worth engaging on.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - unclebucknasty 5y ago
        >we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation The commenter made the statement: "Women get away with too much in our society." What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people? >I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics? >We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign by declaring that it is simply "not useful" and that it only "correlates with the right-wing" (as if that's somehow different from actually being right-wing). Then, you're suggesting that the one who pushes back on the author of that clear political expression is the one engaging in political tribalism.
        smolder 5y ago
        > What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people? The best possible interpretation, to me, would be that they think women get away with too much, for whatever unstated reasons. It doesn't mean interpreting their post as good or true, but it does mean laying aside assumptions about what they mean and haven't said, like that they hate women, or that women shouldn't make as much money or have equal protections under the law, shouldn't be allowed abortions, or something like that. > What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics? I think too many things are ascribed to a left or right political leaning. Couldn't a Marxist conceivably say and believe the same thing? ...that society is too lenient towards women? I believe it's wrong to make assumptions about every political opinion someone holds based on one stated opinion or even a few of them. Why? People are constantly trying to bin me as ingroup or outgroup based on their perception of where some specific opinion lies on a single axis, and they get it wrong both ways. I'm not some stereotype of a centrist either. I have a complex model of the world that draws from a lot of places. Real people are defined on very many axis, not one. Even if the majority of people just found their spot on the left-right axis and adopted every belief they thought belonged there, it's wrong and reductive (and harmful) to assume everyone is that way. Political tribalism or hyperpartisanship or whatever you want to label it is a toxic thing, like a societal disease in need of management, and I try frequently to help other apparently intelligent people see my perspective on it. > The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign. Sorry, no. I engaged you on what you said. I didn't engage them on what they said because it didn't seem worthwhile to me at the time.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Isn't the OC about how female guards are effectively getting away with sexual abuse?
    - fortran77 5y ago
      Exactly right. And how people connected with the story were explaining it way by blaming the victims for being "persuasive". Then the HN crowd jumped on me and called me a right-winger. Ha! I'm quite left-leaning.
      - unclebucknasty 5y ago
        The part people took exception with is: >Women get away with too much in our society Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. As far as the surprise over being labeled a right-winger, can you imagine a meeting of "left-leaning" people wherein that statement would be comfortably accepted or pass unnoticed?
        throwawaytruth1 5y ago
        > Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. You'll quickly get banned from HN. Women already get special treatment. And by "ethnicity or race" I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of", because people make negative statements about whites or asians/indians all the time.
        unclebucknasty 5y ago
        >You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. I've never felt unfairly treated for being a man. I understand that there's a difference when speaking about in-power groups and "out-groups", especially when the latter have experienced unequal treatment at the hands of the former. So, on hearing references to "men" I don't feel personally attacked. I hear it as a metaphor for the group that has "configured the system", wield power within it, and most benefit from it. I think we can agree that men have historically held power in many societies, including the US, right? And that equal treatment of women hasn't historically been (and isn't fully now) a thing, correct? So, I think men have a special responsibility here and should be called to task when they're not meeting it. But, I mean are you really claiming there's no difference between, say, a man (as a member of the group that has traditionally held power) declaring that "Women get away with too much in society" and a woman saying "Men get away with too much in society?" >I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of" No. That's not what I meant. But, what is the logic behind these kinds of comments? Are you arguing for the right to make negative statements about all racial groups and ethnicities? I mean, if instead you want to make the point that we shouldn't make negative statements about any ethnicities or racial groups, then make that point. But, your lamenting about "acceptable groups to make fun of" actually contradicts the point.
  - dang 5y ago
    "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ogma 5y ago
  Bruh, men commit 97% of murders worldwide... Unless the women really just aren't getting caught, I don't think they're the problem.
- dang 5y ago
  Posting flamebait like this to HN will get you banned here. No more of this please. Outright provocation of gender war hell is the last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
phone8675309 5y ago
Very true. I'm a survivor of woman-on-boy sexual assault, and it's hard to talk about with people because the typical response to it is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 I assure you, it's not nice.
- ufmace 5y ago
  Sorry to hear it. I found this video a while back that helps the rest of us get an idea of how it's not actually nice: https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko
  - phone8675309 5y ago
    Thanks for that video. This video was the trigger for me to start talking about my experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 Watching this adult, who I grew up watching on TV when I lived in the Dallas area, be able to openly talk about his experience and show emotion about it is what finally allowed me to start dealing with what happened to me.
- matbilodeau 5y ago
  This is another common reaction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o
dleslie 5y ago
I know it's uncool to do this, but I'm gender-swapping it and I simply can't imagine someone making a statement like this regarding statutory rape and being able to keep their job afterward: > "There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the girls in prison are very persuasive and some of the men are very persuasive," These boys are being raped. It doesn't matter if they're perceived to be instigators, it is incumbent upon the staff to show them that there are boundaries that should not be crossed. At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Tolerating rapists operating as guards in male prisons will likely result in the creation of future rapists.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Do you have a citation for that? I'm aware of head injuries playing a role in a lot of terrible crimes, but I've not heard this assertion before that victims of sexual assault are at greater than average risk of becoming rapists themselves.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    Sure, it's called the victim-to-perpetrator cycle; first thing that came up for me was the Government of QC fact sheet: https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual-abuse-childhood-perpetrators https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual...
    - DoreenMichele 5y ago
      Thank you. But quotes from your own source: While a history of sexual victimization seems to be one of the risk factors that predispose an individual to commit sexual assault, it does not provide sufficient explanation for most instances of this type of assault. There is relatively little evidence that the victim-to-perpetrator cycle is a major factor in sexual assault. These boys should be protected from being raped because they shouldn't be raped. Period.
golemiprague 5y ago
Women and men are different and in many cases men will not feel raped but rather that they "scored" with the warden. We need to focus on cases when men actually get raped by wardens or other inmates rather than trying to prove some false feminist talking points.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  A groomed twelve year old girl will sometimes also feel “lucky” her 35 year old “boyfriend” is having sex with her. It’s still rape, the trauma just manifests later.
  - golemiprague 5y ago
    Each case should be judged according to the specific circumstances, I am just saying that in general men and women are different and in some cases men will not see certain situations as abuse unlike women. There is no point pretending otherwise unless people are caring more about advancing some agenda rather than actually solving the issue of rape in men's jails.
spoonjim 5y ago
What’s your opinion on adult male prisoners who initiate sexual relationships with female prison workers, often for favors or sometimes even for help escaping [1]? Do you also see them as victims? [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled-prison/story?id=31829770 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled...
- saurik 5y ago
  I am somewhat shocked at this question as I feel like you didn't even try to make a good showing with it (such as by trying to at least argue that the prisoner wanted the interaction for something other than a tit-for-tat way to alleviate their court mandated suffering)... yes, 100% absolutely: someone who is in a shitty situation (being in jail) that someone who has some power over them (a guard) is parlaying into "have sex with me and maybe you will get a favor" is a victim.

by belorn 5y ago

kevingadd 5y ago

People will go to any lengths to blame abuse on the abused instead of the abuser if it means they don't have to make changes to society :( The tendency of some to frame this sort of thing as good for boys (a sign of maturity, manhood, etc) makes it worse, kids of any gender should feel safe and not be pressured by adults into doing something they don't want to do or aren't ready for.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fortran77 5y ago

Women get away with too much in our society. Few take female abuse of men seriously. If we want real "equality" they have to bear the consequences of sexual misconduct.

burnished 5y ago
Why are you framing this oppositionally against women? It's weird.
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  Have you not seen this pattern when any social topic comes up on this site? The right wing kneejerk reactions come in, they dont want to solve the problem, they just want to blame "the other" to enrage people.Thats why he has to attack women instead of just defending the boys or talking about the abuse.
  - smolder 5y ago
    I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics, but I think that's pretty off topic here, and we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation of what's said" on HN. We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" simply because of how general and broad it is, which would have been my complaint, if I thought it was worth engaging on.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - unclebucknasty 5y ago
      >we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation The commenter made the statement: "Women get away with too much in our society." What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people? >I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics? >We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign by declaring that it is simply "not useful" and that it only "correlates with the right-wing" (as if that's somehow different from actually being right-wing). Then, you're suggesting that the one who pushes back on the author of that clear political expression is the one engaging in political tribalism.
      - smolder 5y ago
        > What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people? The best possible interpretation, to me, would be that they think women get away with too much, for whatever unstated reasons. It doesn't mean interpreting their post as good or true, but it does mean laying aside assumptions about what they mean and haven't said, like that they hate women, or that women shouldn't make as much money or have equal protections under the law, shouldn't be allowed abortions, or something like that. > What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics? I think too many things are ascribed to a left or right political leaning. Couldn't a Marxist conceivably say and believe the same thing? ...that society is too lenient towards women? I believe it's wrong to make assumptions about every political opinion someone holds based on one stated opinion or even a few of them. Why? People are constantly trying to bin me as ingroup or outgroup based on their perception of where some specific opinion lies on a single axis, and they get it wrong both ways. I'm not some stereotype of a centrist either. I have a complex model of the world that draws from a lot of places. Real people are defined on very many axis, not one. Even if the majority of people just found their spot on the left-right axis and adopted every belief they thought belonged there, it's wrong and reductive (and harmful) to assume everyone is that way. Political tribalism or hyperpartisanship or whatever you want to label it is a toxic thing, like a societal disease in need of management, and I try frequently to help other apparently intelligent people see my perspective on it. > The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign. Sorry, no. I engaged you on what you said. I didn't engage them on what they said because it didn't seem worthwhile to me at the time.
- fastball 5y ago
  Isn't the OC about how female guards are effectively getting away with sexual abuse?
  - fortran77 5y ago
    Exactly right. And how people connected with the story were explaining it way by blaming the victims for being "persuasive". Then the HN crowd jumped on me and called me a right-winger. Ha! I'm quite left-leaning.
    - unclebucknasty 5y ago
      The part people took exception with is: >Women get away with too much in our society Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. As far as the surprise over being labeled a right-winger, can you imagine a meeting of "left-leaning" people wherein that statement would be comfortably accepted or pass unnoticed?
      - throwawaytruth1 5y ago
        > Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. You'll quickly get banned from HN. Women already get special treatment. And by "ethnicity or race" I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of", because people make negative statements about whites or asians/indians all the time.
        unclebucknasty 5y ago
        >You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. I've never felt unfairly treated for being a man. I understand that there's a difference when speaking about in-power groups and "out-groups", especially when the latter have experienced unequal treatment at the hands of the former. So, on hearing references to "men" I don't feel personally attacked. I hear it as a metaphor for the group that has "configured the system", wield power within it, and most benefit from it. I think we can agree that men have historically held power in many societies, including the US, right? And that equal treatment of women hasn't historically been (and isn't fully now) a thing, correct? So, I think men have a special responsibility here and should be called to task when they're not meeting it. But, I mean are you really claiming there's no difference between, say, a man (as a member of the group that has traditionally held power) declaring that "Women get away with too much in society" and a woman saying "Men get away with too much in society?" >I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of" No. That's not what I meant. But, what is the logic behind these kinds of comments? Are you arguing for the right to make negative statements about all racial groups and ethnicities? I mean, if instead you want to make the point that we shouldn't make negative statements about any ethnicities or racial groups, then make that point. But, your lamenting about "acceptable groups to make fun of" actually contradicts the point.
- dang 5y ago
  "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ogma 5y ago
Bruh, men commit 97% of murders worldwide... Unless the women really just aren't getting caught, I don't think they're the problem.
dang 5y ago
Posting flamebait like this to HN will get you banned here. No more of this please. Outright provocation of gender war hell is the last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

phone8675309 5y ago

Very true. I'm a survivor of woman-on-boy sexual assault, and it's hard to talk about with people because the typical response to it is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 I assure you, it's not nice.

ufmace 5y ago
Sorry to hear it. I found this video a while back that helps the rest of us get an idea of how it's not actually nice: https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko
- phone8675309 5y ago
  Thanks for that video. This video was the trigger for me to start talking about my experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 Watching this adult, who I grew up watching on TV when I lived in the Dallas area, be able to openly talk about his experience and show emotion about it is what finally allowed me to start dealing with what happened to me.
matbilodeau 5y ago
This is another common reaction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o

dleslie 5y ago

I know it's uncool to do this, but I'm gender-swapping it and I simply can't imagine someone making a statement like this regarding statutory rape and being able to keep their job afterward: > "There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the girls in prison are very persuasive and some of the men are very persuasive," These boys are being raped. It doesn't matter if they're perceived to be instigators, it is incumbent upon the staff to show them that there are boundaries that should not be crossed. At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Tolerating rapists operating as guards in male prisons will likely result in the creation of future rapists.

DoreenMichele 5y ago
At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Do you have a citation for that? I'm aware of head injuries playing a role in a lot of terrible crimes, but I've not heard this assertion before that victims of sexual assault are at greater than average risk of becoming rapists themselves.
- dleslie 5y ago
  Sure, it's called the victim-to-perpetrator cycle; first thing that came up for me was the Government of QC fact sheet: https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual-abuse-childhood-perpetrators https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual...
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Thank you. But quotes from your own source: While a history of sexual victimization seems to be one of the risk factors that predispose an individual to commit sexual assault, it does not provide sufficient explanation for most instances of this type of assault. There is relatively little evidence that the victim-to-perpetrator cycle is a major factor in sexual assault. These boys should be protected from being raped because they shouldn't be raped. Period.

golemiprague 5y ago

Women and men are different and in many cases men will not feel raped but rather that they "scored" with the warden. We need to focus on cases when men actually get raped by wardens or other inmates rather than trying to prove some false feminist talking points.

alasdair_ 5y ago
A groomed twelve year old girl will sometimes also feel “lucky” her 35 year old “boyfriend” is having sex with her. It’s still rape, the trauma just manifests later.
- golemiprague 5y ago
  Each case should be judged according to the specific circumstances, I am just saying that in general men and women are different and in some cases men will not see certain situations as abuse unlike women. There is no point pretending otherwise unless people are caring more about advancing some agenda rather than actually solving the issue of rape in men's jails.

spoonjim 5y ago

What’s your opinion on adult male prisoners who initiate sexual relationships with female prison workers, often for favors or sometimes even for help escaping [1]? Do you also see them as victims? [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled-prison/story?id=31829770 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled...

saurik 5y ago
I am somewhat shocked at this question as I feel like you didn't even try to make a good showing with it (such as by trying to at least argue that the prisoner wanted the interaction for something other than a tit-for-tat way to alleviate their court mandated suffering)... yes, 100% absolutely: someone who is in a shitty situation (being in jail) that someone who has some power over them (a guard) is parlaying into "have sex with me and maybe you will get a favor" is a victim.