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Boys in Custody and the Women Who Abuse Them
- belorn 5y ago> "But he also said that, in some cases, both female guards and the boys they molest share some responsibility. > “There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the guys in prison are very persuasive and some of the women are very persuasive,” Wilkinson said." I guess we are still have a very long way to go on the cultural part of defining victim and perpetrator.
- kevingadd 5y agoPeople will go to any lengths to blame abuse on the abused instead of the abuser if it means they don't have to make changes to society :( The tendency of some to frame this sort of thing as good for boys (a sign of maturity, manhood, etc) makes it worse, kids of any gender should feel safe and not be pressured by adults into doing something they don't want to do or aren't ready for.
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- fortran77 5y agoWomen get away with too much in our society. Few take female abuse of men seriously. If we want real "equality" they have to bear the consequences of sexual misconduct.
- burnished 5y agoWhy are you framing this oppositionally against women? It's weird.
- shephardjhon 5y agoHave you not seen this pattern when any social topic comes up on this site? The right wing kneejerk reactions come in, they dont want to solve the problem, they just want to blame "the other" to enrage people.Thats why he has to attack women instead of just defending the boys or talking about the abuse.
- smolder 5y agoI didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics, but I think that's pretty off topic here, and we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation of what's said" on HN. We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" simply because of how general and broad it is, which would have been my complaint, if I thought it was worth engaging on.
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- unclebucknasty 5y ago>we're supposed to "reply to the best possible interpretation The commenter made the statement: "Women get away with too much in our society." What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people? >I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics? >We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much" The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign by declaring that it is simply "not useful" and that it only "correlates with the right-wing" (as if that's somehow different from actually being right-wing). Then, you're suggesting that the one who pushes back on the author of that clear political expression is the one engaging in political tribalism.
- fastball 5y agoIsn't the OC about how female guards are effectively getting away with sexual abuse?
- fortran77 5y agoExactly right. And how people connected with the story were explaining it way by blaming the victims for being "persuasive". Then the HN crowd jumped on me and called me a right-winger. Ha! I'm quite left-leaning.
- unclebucknasty 5y agoThe part people took exception with is: >Women get away with too much in our society Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. As far as the surprise over being labeled a right-winger, can you imagine a meeting of "left-leaning" people wherein that statement would be comfortably accepted or pass unnoticed?
- throwawaytruth1 5y ago> Surely you see the problem here? If still not, then replace "Women" with an ethnicity or race in that statement. You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. You'll quickly get banned from HN. Women already get special treatment. And by "ethnicity or race" I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of", because people make negative statements about whites or asians/indians all the time.
- unclebucknasty 5y ago>You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. I've never felt unfairly treated for being a man. I understand that there's a difference when speaking about in-power groups and "out-groups", especially when the latter have experienced unequal treatment at the hands of the former. So, on hearing references to "men" I don't feel personally attacked. I hear it as a metaphor for the group that has "configured the system", wield power within it, and most benefit from it. I think we can agree that men have historically held power in many societies, including the US, right? And that equal treatment of women hasn't historically been (and isn't fully now) a thing, correct? So, I think men have a special responsibility here and should be called to task when they're not meeting it. But, I mean are you really claiming there's no difference between, say, a man (as a member of the group that has traditionally held power) declaring that "Women get away with too much in society" and a woman saying "Men get away with too much in society?" >I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of" No. That's not what I meant. But, what is the logic behind these kinds of comments? Are you arguing for the right to make negative statements about all racial groups and ethnicities? I mean, if instead you want to make the point that we shouldn't make negative statements about any ethnicities or racial groups, then make that point. But, your lamenting about "acceptable groups to make fun of" actually contradicts the point.
- dang 5y ago"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ogma 5y agoBruh, men commit 97% of murders worldwide... Unless the women really just aren't getting caught, I don't think they're the problem.
- dang 5y agoPosting flamebait like this to HN will get you banned here. No more of this please. Outright provocation of gender war hell is the last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- phone8675309 5y agoVery true. I'm a survivor of woman-on-boy sexual assault, and it's hard to talk about with people because the typical response to it is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdbns1Xdk0 I assure you, it's not nice.
- ufmace 5y agoSorry to hear it. I found this video a while back that helps the rest of us get an idea of how it's not actually nice: https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko https://youtu.be/Ikd0ZYQoDko
- phone8675309 5y agoThanks for that video. This video was the trigger for me to start talking about my experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0 Watching this adult, who I grew up watching on TV when I lived in the Dallas area, be able to openly talk about his experience and show emotion about it is what finally allowed me to start dealing with what happened to me.
- matbilodeau 5y agoThis is another common reaction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8sjzETQ5o
- dleslie 5y agoI know it's uncool to do this, but I'm gender-swapping it and I simply can't imagine someone making a statement like this regarding statutory rape and being able to keep their job afterward: > "There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the girls in prison are very persuasive and some of the men are very persuasive," These boys are being raped. It doesn't matter if they're perceived to be instigators, it is incumbent upon the staff to show them that there are boundaries that should not be crossed. At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Tolerating rapists operating as guards in male prisons will likely result in the creation of future rapists.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoAt the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Do you have a citation for that? I'm aware of head injuries playing a role in a lot of terrible crimes, but I've not heard this assertion before that victims of sexual assault are at greater than average risk of becoming rapists themselves.
- dleslie 5y agoSure, it's called the victim-to-perpetrator cycle; first thing that came up for me was the Government of QC fact sheet: https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual-abuse-childhood-perpetrators https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual...
- DoreenMichele 5y agoThank you. But quotes from your own source: While a history of sexual victimization seems to be one of the risk factors that predispose an individual to commit sexual assault, it does not provide sufficient explanation for most instances of this type of assault. There is relatively little evidence that the victim-to-perpetrator cycle is a major factor in sexual assault. These boys should be protected from being raped because they shouldn't be raped. Period.
- golemiprague 5y agoWomen and men are different and in many cases men will not feel raped but rather that they "scored" with the warden. We need to focus on cases when men actually get raped by wardens or other inmates rather than trying to prove some false feminist talking points.
- alasdair_ 5y agoA groomed twelve year old girl will sometimes also feel “lucky” her 35 year old “boyfriend” is having sex with her. It’s still rape, the trauma just manifests later.
- golemiprague 5y agoEach case should be judged according to the specific circumstances, I am just saying that in general men and women are different and in some cases men will not see certain situations as abuse unlike women. There is no point pretending otherwise unless people are caring more about advancing some agenda rather than actually solving the issue of rape in men's jails.
- spoonjim 5y agoWhat’s your opinion on adult male prisoners who initiate sexual relationships with female prison workers, often for favors or sometimes even for help escaping [1]? Do you also see them as victims? [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled-prison/story?id=31829770 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled...
- saurik 5y agoI am somewhat shocked at this question as I feel like you didn't even try to make a good showing with it (such as by trying to at least argue that the prisoner wanted the interaction for something other than a tit-for-tat way to alleviate their court mandated suffering)... yes, 100% absolutely: someone who is in a shitty situation (being in jail) that someone who has some power over them (a guard) is parlaying into "have sex with me and maybe you will get a favor" is a victim.
- excalibur 5y agoStripping prisoners, teenagers, and teenage prisoners of the legal ability to consent to sexual activity is itself a form of sexual abuse.
- kevingadd 5y agoConsider whether this assertion is remotely relevant in a discussion of sexual abuse in prisons?
- DangitBobby 5y agoIt seems that they are saying the prisoners apparent consent, which is being denied outright, should not be denied. If so, it would be relevant, since the entire discussion of abuse hinges on it being abuse.
- hackinthebochs 5y agoThis seems analogous to the manipulator thought experiment in the free will debate. Imagine a scenario such that, should you choose or intend to choose X, some advanced manipulation will kick in and force you to choose Y. But in fact you chose Y and the manipulation did not kick in. Are you responsible for choosing Y? If you think you freely chose Y in the above scenario, it seems one can freely consent even in coercive contexts. The issue is the law adjudicating between consent and coercion in such scenarios. However, if the presumed victim is not contesting consent, I find it hard to see a problem.
- lkrubner 5y agoCompletely irrelevant when the conversation is about the relationship between the powers of the state and the protections afforded citizens who've been accused or proven guilty of crimes.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y agoIt isn’t ever sexual abuse to refuse to fuck someone.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago“ Drawing on their sample, Justice Department researchers estimate that 1,390 juveniles in the facilities they examined have experienced sex abuse at the hands of the staff supervising them, a rate of nearly 8 percent. Twenty percent who said they were victimized by staff said it happened on more than 10 occasions. Nine out of 10 victims were males abused by female staff.” It also puts the famous kickbacks for jailing kids in a whole other, revolting light.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoencouraging male teens to understand such sex is, in fact, a crime, that it is never really consensual Statutory rape. Something a lot of people have difficulty comprehending as actually rape. Of course, the world still tends to imagine rape as a violent crime. In many cases, it's not. Date rape is another variation of this problem. women forcing males into sex does not comport with society’s conventional definition of rape. Last I checked, in far too many cases, the legal definition of rape literally makes it a crime that cannot be committed by a woman. Though hopefully that's changing.
- Ceezy 5y ago< Last I checked, in far too many cases, the legal definition of rape literally makes it a crime that cannot be committed by a woman. Or by anybody, unfortunately. But this is also the institution never wanting to be accountable for its errors. These people place is a jail. Will see if they consent to have sex with their own prison guard.
- eigengrau5150 5y agoThis isn't abuse. This is rape. Let's call it what it is and eradicate it.
- NewAcc1234 5y agoThey both spent a lot of time together and there is nothing else to do (flirt with). I prefer to deescalate this over your approach of escalating it!
- sodality2 5y agoYou are referring to rape. What is there to "deescalate"? Why would you want to "deescalate" someone who is going to commit rape?
- eigengrau5150 5y agoMaybe they meant "defenestrate"?
- eigengrau5150 5y agoI prefer to punish abuses of power rather than "deescalate".
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoTrying to cram fact patterns like described in TFA into the same bucket as violent rape is a great way to make sure neither is treated appropriately.
- tehwebguy 5y agoOne person is literally a caged minor and the other person is an adult with unilateral power over them including legal authority to use violence against them or even write a report that extends their sentence.
- throwawaytruth1 5y agoThis is exactly what is done all the time with non-violent male-on-female rape, and that's taken seriously. Why is it any different here?
- timwaagh 5y agoWell if two people are stranded for some time on a deserted island and one is male and the other is female then they will probably have sex. For the boys they don't have opportunities other than possibly these guards. As any male who has been through puberty knows, juvenile delinquents are probably old enough to want those opportunities. For some of the guards the situation might not be that different. I'd be very hesitant to just go after these guards as rapists. The way to solve the situation would instead be to do the obvious thing and simply require male guards for male prisoners, as old-fashioned as such a provision might be.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y agoIt is the responsibility of an adult not to have sex with minors that they have complete control over, even if the minor is trying to flirt with or otherwise attempts to solicit sex. If they cannot do this, the adult shouldn’t be allowed to be employed where they will be in close contact with minors that they are responsible for.
- R0b0t1 5y agoThe counterpoint (not that I am saying everything is fine) is that there are often many minors the responsible adult can try to have sex with, at least one of which will probably be receptive. It's not clear that in every case there is coercion as most people would observe and define it which is why it's taken so long to start a discussion about female on male rape.
- ruytlm 5y agoThe counterpoint is that no responsible adult tries to have sex with minors.
- R0b0t1 5y ago100000BC to the 1980s would like to have a word with you? My point here isn't necessarily to defend it but to demonstrate that you need to be trying harder to avoid dogmatic thinking. Parts of the world still happily practice child marriage, how are you going to convince them?
- codycraven 5y agoIt seems like it'd be incredibly difficult to obtain accurate data through a mass survey. I know in work places "anonymous" surveys are often given where employees know/think the data is not truly anonymous and as such do not provide honest input. I'd imagine this survey could be impacted similarly, either by underreporting because of shame/fear or falsely reporting in an attempt to get their detainers in trouble.
- amin 5y agoA lady listening and connecting with me. And then we make love. Where do I sign up for this “abuse”?
- smt88 5y agoThis is interesting and important, but seems off-topic and has already devolved into a fruitless culture war in the comments. Going to go ahead and flag it...
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- xyzzy21 5y agoEquality means women can be pedos too! Women cheat as much if not more than men. So this should not be a surprise.
- fennecfoxy 5y agoRealistically this boils down to one thing: if the sexes in the described scenarios were reversed, the public would be losing their minds.