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Martin, if you are reading this, here's something you could do: Revisit REST (and the Richardson Maturity Model[1]) and explain why REST has failed so spectacu

Martin, if you are reading this, here's something you could do: Revisit REST (and the Richardson Maturity Model[1]) and explain why REST has failed so spectacularly in the JSON API world. It's worth doing because REST-ful hypermedia systems are using an interesting and distinctive network model, and most younger web engineers don't know much about it and end up using the client-server approaches that have become so common for modern web applications. You are in a great (perhaps the best) position to respark interest in hypermedia and the REST-ful approach. I have some thoughts on the matter[2][3][4], and would be happy to discuss. -- [1] - https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityMode... [2] - https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/01/18/rescuing-rest.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/01/18/rescuing-rest.html [3] - https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.h... [4] - https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/

vlunkr 5y ago
> explain why REST has failed so spectacularly in the JSON API world Could you elaborate on this?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thehappypm 5y ago
  By failed, I think they mean “spectacularly wide usage, with some drawbacks”.
  - plorkyeran 5y ago
    REST as Fowler advocated for is used approximately nowhere. The widely used thing known as REST is very unlike it.
    - bradwood 5y ago
      Everyone hates HATEOAS
      - OJFord 5y ago
        I've only heard of HATEOAS from people loving it but not getting to 'do' it.
    - dvaun 5y ago
      Rather, perhaps people should take a look at the thoughts about REST from the researcher who wrote the original dissertation: https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...
      - recursivedoubts 5y ago
        "I am getting frustrated by the number of people calling any HTTP-based interface a REST API. " I am familiar with that feel.
      - ramraj07 5y ago
        Someone please help here, im reading all the links here and still drawing a blank on what is and is not REST! Can someone link to an API that’s truly RESTful? And perhaps one that’s barely not?
        voiceofunreason 5y ago
        REST is the architectural style of the World Wide Web: browsers reading cached copies of web pages that link to other web pages. So almost any site you hit with your browser is a "RESTful API". Another decent example is Atom Syndication / Atom Publishing. The best introduction that I've found is Jim Webber's 2011 talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVSzMV8DWc&t=3m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVSzMV8DWc&t=3m8s Jon Moore's 2010 Hypermedia APIs talk is also good https://vimeo.com/20781278 https://vimeo.com/20781278 Unfortunately, a second idea appeared, that embraced the label "REST" but used it to mean something else (roughly, a set of conventions for how to organize web pages and the edits one makes to web pages). And the second idea was written and shared with a much larger audience than the first (in addition to being an "easier" idea), so it grabbed a super majority of the mind share.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    > spectacularly wide usage There are very few JSON-based hypermedia APIs being built and the few that were are almost never used as a uniform interface. They are treated as a normal, RTFM API. In REST-ful terms (real REST, not the "REST is JSON with hierarchical end points, kinda" sense), REST has failed spectacularly in the JSON world.
- Andys 5y ago
  I wonder about this too. I regularly read that REST is bad/failed. But it appears to have had been widely adopted in a soft way, beating any competing ideas.
- asah 5y ago
  Mobile apps have high network latency and need multiple request/responses packaged into fewer server calls.
  - raihansaputra 5y ago
    I think this is the main thing that prevents HATEOAS to be implemented. I'm very interested in it, but many "web apps" now needs more polished interaction and network resilience. I'm not saying it can't be done with an HTML-render centric codebase, but it's still uncommon.
- nicwolff 5y ago
  Essentially no-one implements REST APIs as defined by Fielding and Fowler because what software developers and architects actually find valuable is an HTTP CRUD API. The widespread adoption of microsystems architectures required the selection and standardization of a format for the transfer and modification of resource representations between services, and CRUD over HTTPs serves that purpose pretty well. Unfortunately, REST is the buzzword under which HTTP CRUD APIs were proposed and promulgated, so now we have a schism between theorists who consider HATEOAS a requirement but can't explain any benefit to the common real-world use case, or give any practical examples, and engineers who now just roll their eyes when the theorists say they're not really building REST APIs. We know we're not, but if we tell our managers that we've implemented HTTP CRUD APIs for the backend services, they'll ask us why we're didn't choose REST...
alisonkisk 5y ago
REST is a model for CRUD, but modern apps have far more complex interactions with server data.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  This is a category error. REST is a novel network architecture, the most distinct aspect of which is the uniform interface[1], and has nothing to do, conceptually, with CRUD apps. It may be associated with web 1.0 CRUD apps, but the actual REST/hypermedia model generalizes and HTML, with a bit of help[2], can produce sophisticated UIs well beyond "CRUD". -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer#Uniform_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfe... [2] https://htmx.org/examples https://htmx.org/examples
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > REST is a model for CRUD CRUD covers all possible interactions with data, and, in that sense, this description is correct. “CRUD application” is sometimes used to refer to an application which presents only the most simple operations data operations to users, and saying REST is for CRUD applications in that sense would be the opposite of the truth. In fact, its the opposite, its a mechanism which facilitates creating applications of arbitrary complexity from components exposing simple, self-describing interfaces.
mikevm 5y ago
He can start by actually developing a major (non-toy) application using HATEOAS and then once we all marvel at his success, we might consider doing things this way. To me, HATEOAS always seemed like it wants me to basically re-invent the web browser. You know, the fact that basically no one does things this way may give you a hint on how actually useful it is.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  HATEOAS doesn't want you to reinvent the web browser. HATEOAS is describing how the browser and HTML works. It was the JSON API folks who (inappropriately) appropriated REST terminology that made folks feel like they had to shoehorn that concept into what is really RPC.
  - mikevm 5y ago
    Yes, but there were some people that were pushing HATEOAS for APIs. I think the fact that pretty much no one does it is good enough evidence to see that it's just not a good fit. HATEOAS is good for web sites and human operators, but not for APIs being executed by software.

vlunkr 5y ago

> explain why REST has failed so spectacularly in the JSON API world Could you elaborate on this?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thehappypm 5y ago
By failed, I think they mean “spectacularly wide usage, with some drawbacks”.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  REST as Fowler advocated for is used approximately nowhere. The widely used thing known as REST is very unlike it.
  - bradwood 5y ago
    Everyone hates HATEOAS
    - OJFord 5y ago
      I've only heard of HATEOAS from people loving it but not getting to 'do' it.
  - dvaun 5y ago
    Rather, perhaps people should take a look at the thoughts about REST from the researcher who wrote the original dissertation: https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...
    - recursivedoubts 5y ago
      "I am getting frustrated by the number of people calling any HTTP-based interface a REST API. " I am familiar with that feel.
    - ramraj07 5y ago
      Someone please help here, im reading all the links here and still drawing a blank on what is and is not REST! Can someone link to an API that’s truly RESTful? And perhaps one that’s barely not?
      - voiceofunreason 5y ago
        REST is the architectural style of the World Wide Web: browsers reading cached copies of web pages that link to other web pages. So almost any site you hit with your browser is a "RESTful API". Another decent example is Atom Syndication / Atom Publishing. The best introduction that I've found is Jim Webber's 2011 talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVSzMV8DWc&t=3m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVSzMV8DWc&t=3m8s Jon Moore's 2010 Hypermedia APIs talk is also good https://vimeo.com/20781278 https://vimeo.com/20781278 Unfortunately, a second idea appeared, that embraced the label "REST" but used it to mean something else (roughly, a set of conventions for how to organize web pages and the edits one makes to web pages). And the second idea was written and shared with a much larger audience than the first (in addition to being an "easier" idea), so it grabbed a super majority of the mind share.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  > spectacularly wide usage There are very few JSON-based hypermedia APIs being built and the few that were are almost never used as a uniform interface. They are treated as a normal, RTFM API. In REST-ful terms (real REST, not the "REST is JSON with hierarchical end points, kinda" sense), REST has failed spectacularly in the JSON world.
Andys 5y ago
I wonder about this too. I regularly read that REST is bad/failed. But it appears to have had been widely adopted in a soft way, beating any competing ideas.
asah 5y ago
Mobile apps have high network latency and need multiple request/responses packaged into fewer server calls.
- raihansaputra 5y ago
  I think this is the main thing that prevents HATEOAS to be implemented. I'm very interested in it, but many "web apps" now needs more polished interaction and network resilience. I'm not saying it can't be done with an HTML-render centric codebase, but it's still uncommon.
nicwolff 5y ago
Essentially no-one implements REST APIs as defined by Fielding and Fowler because what software developers and architects actually find valuable is an HTTP CRUD API. The widespread adoption of microsystems architectures required the selection and standardization of a format for the transfer and modification of resource representations between services, and CRUD over HTTPs serves that purpose pretty well. Unfortunately, REST is the buzzword under which HTTP CRUD APIs were proposed and promulgated, so now we have a schism between theorists who consider HATEOAS a requirement but can't explain any benefit to the common real-world use case, or give any practical examples, and engineers who now just roll their eyes when the theorists say they're not really building REST APIs. We know we're not, but if we tell our managers that we've implemented HTTP CRUD APIs for the backend services, they'll ask us why we're didn't choose REST...

alisonkisk 5y ago

REST is a model for CRUD, but modern apps have far more complex interactions with server data.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
This is a category error. REST is a novel network architecture, the most distinct aspect of which is the uniform interface[1], and has nothing to do, conceptually, with CRUD apps. It may be associated with web 1.0 CRUD apps, but the actual REST/hypermedia model generalizes and HTML, with a bit of help[2], can produce sophisticated UIs well beyond "CRUD". -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer#Uniform_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfe... [2] https://htmx.org/examples https://htmx.org/examples
dragonwriter 5y ago
> REST is a model for CRUD CRUD covers all possible interactions with data, and, in that sense, this description is correct. “CRUD application” is sometimes used to refer to an application which presents only the most simple operations data operations to users, and saying REST is for CRUD applications in that sense would be the opposite of the truth. In fact, its the opposite, its a mechanism which facilitates creating applications of arbitrary complexity from components exposing simple, self-describing interfaces.

mikevm 5y ago

He can start by actually developing a major (non-toy) application using HATEOAS and then once we all marvel at his success, we might consider doing things this way. To me, HATEOAS always seemed like it wants me to basically re-invent the web browser. You know, the fact that basically no one does things this way may give you a hint on how actually useful it is.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
HATEOAS doesn't want you to reinvent the web browser. HATEOAS is describing how the browser and HTML works. It was the JSON API folks who (inappropriately) appropriated REST terminology that made folks feel like they had to shoehorn that concept into what is really RPC.
- mikevm 5y ago
  Yes, but there were some people that were pushing HATEOAS for APIs. I think the fact that pretty much no one does it is good enough evidence to see that it's just not a good fit. HATEOAS is good for web sites and human operators, but not for APIs being executed by software.