5 ms·

Fowler states: I’ve long known that when you’re doing very creative work, such as writing or programming, the useful hours you can do in a day is rather less th

Fowler states: I’ve long known that when you’re doing very creative work, such as writing or programming, the useful hours you can do in a day is rather less than the accepted industrial eight. I don't want to disagree with him as this is quite subjective, but when I am totally engrossed in solving a problem, I get into a flow and the time flies by. If the problem is both interesting and challenging, I can't wait to get back to working on it and I hate having to stop! I do agree if the work is joyless and the product is tedious, one hour spent on it can certainly seem like eight.

tcldr 5y ago
I can only speak for myself, but I find the quality of output decreases pretty steeply after around six hours of flow. Determination can keep me going but I’ve learnt that it’s probably more efficient to just rest and return to it after a good night's sleep.
- diskzero 5y ago
  You have learned a good skill, which is knowing how and when to stop. That is something I have a very, very hard time with.
HighlandSpring 5y ago
In my experience if I'm in flow for 14 hours and time flies it's because I'm doing a high-value refactor at roughly the right time (not premature) If I'm doing a more open ended problem like modelling something from scratch (I have boxes and arrows on a piece of paper but the edge cases are still a mystery) then it's something I'll exhaust myself on much sooner
webmaven 5y ago
> [W]hen I am totally engrossed in solving a problem, I get into a flow and the time flies by. If the problem is both interesting and challenging, I can't wait to get back to working on it and I hate having to stop! I agree that it is possible to remain in a state of flow for "the standard industrial eight", but on occasions where I've remained in a state of flow for eight (or more) hours, the quality of the work suffers, and the following day is a total loss (as in "me no think good, think meat broken"), so it is better to keep to a more sustainable pace.
- hhmc 5y ago
  > and the following day is a total loss (as in "me no think good, think meat broken") I've certainly experienced this also. I'm curious if there's a neurological explanation?
  - webmaven 5y ago
    https://www.discovery.com/science/Body-Tired-When-Your-Brain-Is-Fried https://www.discovery.com/science/Body-Tired-When-Your-Brain...
orzig 5y ago
We talk about this a lot on HN, and I'm curious: Are there good studies on this stuff /in the programming context/? I'm aware of the work with athletes and musicians (an excellent start, but requires a lot of generalization to corporate knowledge work). Even better, given that people are going to vary by at least as much as we vary in physical stamina, advice about how to learn what my own limits are, given that it's so hard to introspect?
sureglymop 5y ago
I agree but the thing is that not every day in the week will be like that. So if you have this "hyperfocus" for two days a weeks and on the other days you don't do that much work it might average out to pretty much what he's describing.
jlg23 5y ago
That you can be "engrossed in solving a problem" is a luxury. One that I enjoyed when I was responsible only to myself. Once my wife and daughter entered my life, it was gone. And even before, from time to time, I had to make space for other obligations that came before my interest/work. The problems to solve still interest me, but changing diapers or getting something from the supermarket for my daugher before it closes has become important enough that may they to "disrupt"[1] my life anytime. [1] in quotes, because I would not want to live without these "disruptions" anymore. The accomplishment of calming my baby daughter in a few seconds dwarves any of the hacks people still know me for.
- diskzero 5y ago
  That is a good observation. I am the primary care-giver for a sick spouse, so I have also seen the luxury of time spent on programming diminish. I am glad you pointed this out. Now that I am older, and perhaps wiser, I can look back at some of the unhealthy attitudes that I had about co-workers who had to balance the much more important demands of life against completing a certain feature or getting a demo ready by a certain date. When I look at my younger self, I can see how this attitude can lead to ageism and the lack of respect and support some employees see in organizations that only value how much code you can crank out.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  That means your other life commitments compete with your engineering goals, but it doesn't mean that you are doing better engineering because of it. ("Having it all" is a myth.)
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I tend not to have flow in programming for more than 3 or 4 hours. In writing my experience is that you can have flow for days but at some point it starts to peter out and then you grind to a halt, and because you have been running on flow for such a long time it is difficult to force yourself to just write, because you hope to get the flow back, so then you spend a few days doing nothing but a paragraph or two until you realize you have to do the work and the flow is just not coming back by itself.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tcldr 5y ago

I can only speak for myself, but I find the quality of output decreases pretty steeply after around six hours of flow. Determination can keep me going but I’ve learnt that it’s probably more efficient to just rest and return to it after a good night's sleep.

diskzero 5y ago
You have learned a good skill, which is knowing how and when to stop. That is something I have a very, very hard time with.

HighlandSpring 5y ago

In my experience if I'm in flow for 14 hours and time flies it's because I'm doing a high-value refactor at roughly the right time (not premature) If I'm doing a more open ended problem like modelling something from scratch (I have boxes and arrows on a piece of paper but the edge cases are still a mystery) then it's something I'll exhaust myself on much sooner

webmaven 5y ago

> [W]hen I am totally engrossed in solving a problem, I get into a flow and the time flies by. If the problem is both interesting and challenging, I can't wait to get back to working on it and I hate having to stop! I agree that it is possible to remain in a state of flow for "the standard industrial eight", but on occasions where I've remained in a state of flow for eight (or more) hours, the quality of the work suffers, and the following day is a total loss (as in "me no think good, think meat broken"), so it is better to keep to a more sustainable pace.

hhmc 5y ago
> and the following day is a total loss (as in "me no think good, think meat broken") I've certainly experienced this also. I'm curious if there's a neurological explanation?
- webmaven 5y ago
  https://www.discovery.com/science/Body-Tired-When-Your-Brain-Is-Fried https://www.discovery.com/science/Body-Tired-When-Your-Brain...

orzig 5y ago

We talk about this a lot on HN, and I'm curious: Are there good studies on this stuff /in the programming context/? I'm aware of the work with athletes and musicians (an excellent start, but requires a lot of generalization to corporate knowledge work). Even better, given that people are going to vary by at least as much as we vary in physical stamina, advice about how to learn what my own limits are, given that it's so hard to introspect?

sureglymop 5y ago

I agree but the thing is that not every day in the week will be like that. So if you have this "hyperfocus" for two days a weeks and on the other days you don't do that much work it might average out to pretty much what he's describing.

jlg23 5y ago

That you can be "engrossed in solving a problem" is a luxury. One that I enjoyed when I was responsible only to myself. Once my wife and daughter entered my life, it was gone. And even before, from time to time, I had to make space for other obligations that came before my interest/work. The problems to solve still interest me, but changing diapers or getting something from the supermarket for my daugher before it closes has become important enough that may they to "disrupt"[1] my life anytime. [1] in quotes, because I would not want to live without these "disruptions" anymore. The accomplishment of calming my baby daughter in a few seconds dwarves any of the hacks people still know me for.

diskzero 5y ago
That is a good observation. I am the primary care-giver for a sick spouse, so I have also seen the luxury of time spent on programming diminish. I am glad you pointed this out. Now that I am older, and perhaps wiser, I can look back at some of the unhealthy attitudes that I had about co-workers who had to balance the much more important demands of life against completing a certain feature or getting a demo ready by a certain date. When I look at my younger self, I can see how this attitude can lead to ageism and the lack of respect and support some employees see in organizations that only value how much code you can crank out.
alisonkisk 5y ago
That means your other life commitments compete with your engineering goals, but it doesn't mean that you are doing better engineering because of it. ("Having it all" is a myth.)

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

I tend not to have flow in programming for more than 3 or 4 hours. In writing my experience is that you can have flow for days but at some point it starts to peter out and then you grind to a halt, and because you have been running on flow for such a long time it is difficult to force yourself to just write, because you hope to get the flow back, so then you spend a few days doing nothing but a paragraph or two until you realize you have to do the work and the flow is just not coming back by itself.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]