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>>they merely even the playing field at the negotiating table and generally make the process smoother. The negotiating table is completely even in a free marke

>>they merely even the playing field at the negotiating table and generally make the process smoother. The negotiating table is completely even in a free market, i.e. a society where contract liberty is intact. For example, it's irrelevant to my negotiation with Apple that Apple is worth $2.4 trillion. It can't force me to buy Apple products. Once the free-market ruleset is undermined, then Apple can, through taxing authorities and regulatory gatekeepers and the armed government agents that enforce their taxes and restrictions, force me to buy its products. The free market ruleset protects our most basic rights, and is the most important institution for protecting the weak from the strong. That you believe otherwise is a deliberate outcome by those who want to abolish those safeguards. Labor unions are one such organization that wants you to believe otherwise. The wage gains they get their members is not a result of them "even[ing] the playing field at the negotiating table". It's a result of the government MANDATING, on their behalf, that the employer collectively bargain with them, i.e. prohibiting the employer from negotiating with any party other than the union. This blatantly violates the free market principle of all parties having contract liberty, and allows the union to blackmail the employer into paying above market wages via the threat of striking.

chmod775 5y ago
> > It's a result of the government MANDATING, on their behalf, that the employer collectively bargain with them, i.e. prohibiting the employer from negotiating with any party other than the union. You can have unions without the government mandating anything. This is a total straw man. Here's an example: I know I'm worth considerably more to my employer than they're paying me, but were I to ask for appropriate compensation they'd rather let me go than pay up - because it would set a bad precedent. Any other employer I could turn to would do the same. So I can't demand that compensation because unlike corporations I need to eat. And you're going to tell me this kind of situation isn't an asymmetrical power dynamic? The corporation can chalk it up as a strategic loss and survive, I can't. The "war chests" here are so disproportionally unbalanced it isn't even funny. It would be a different picture if most people they could replace me with (if they even find anyone) would negotiate 'properly'. But people don't - it doesn't make sense for any individual. Hence, unions. Also you bringing up the situation of unions in the US is nice and all, but this article is about Germany. You might want to research the situation there and reevaluate.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>You can have unions without the government mandating anything. Unions have no power in a free market, which is why unionization rates were so low until the unions successfully hoodwinked society into believing their victim narrative, and had the government pass laws in their favor. >>Here's an example: I know I'm worth considerably more to my employer than they're paying me, but were I to ask for appropriate compensation they'd rather let me go than pay up - because it would set a bad precedent. Any other employer I could turn to would do the same. Or they could pay you more and require that you to not disclose your pay raise to co-workers. If they don't pay market wages, their employees will resign to work for companies that do. There's no trick that companies can use to avoid paying market wages. Supply and demand are the dominant forces in determining wage levels, as centuries of empirical evidence shows. The free market is quite efficient, and as a consequence, laws that violate it typically reduce efficiency. EDIT, being rate limited so will respond to the below here: >>There's also no such thing as laws forcing employers to negotiate with unions Collective bargaining laws do precisely this. In the US, if the majority of a work unit votes to unionize, the company employing them MUST engage in collective bargaining with the entire work unit, and cannot fire them and replace them with workers who are not unionized. This basic violation of contract liberty is characterized by mainstream academia and so-called civil liberties organizations like the ACLU, in Orwellian fashion, as a human right, and has become institutionalized around the world. >>Because I've got a history book full of examples that say otherwise - of unions/guilds mattering even when facing opposition from the government. The power of guilds came entirely from government! The defining characteristic of a guild was an association of market providers who were granted, by government authorities, a market monopoly, to the exclusion of market providers not party to the guild.
  - chmod775 5y ago
    > Unions have no power in a free market, which is why unionization rates were so low until the unions successfully hoodwinked society into believing their victim narrative, and had the government pass laws in their favor. Unions have been outlawed (or taken over by the state) at several points in German history. Nowadays guilds and unions don't enjoy many special protections except for such things as the basic right of people to form associations: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_9.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_9.html There's also no such thing as laws forcing employers to negotiate with unions. Employees who aren't part of the union in question are not subject to agreements negotiated between employer and unions: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tvg/__3.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tvg/__3.html Also about "Unions have no power in a free market"... do you really stand by that statement? Because I've got a history book full of examples that say otherwise - of unions/guilds mattering even when facing opposition from the government.

chmod775 5y ago

> > It's a result of the government MANDATING, on their behalf, that the employer collectively bargain with them, i.e. prohibiting the employer from negotiating with any party other than the union. You can have unions without the government mandating anything. This is a total straw man. Here's an example: I know I'm worth considerably more to my employer than they're paying me, but were I to ask for appropriate compensation they'd rather let me go than pay up - because it would set a bad precedent. Any other employer I could turn to would do the same. So I can't demand that compensation because unlike corporations I need to eat. And you're going to tell me this kind of situation isn't an asymmetrical power dynamic? The corporation can chalk it up as a strategic loss and survive, I can't. The "war chests" here are so disproportionally unbalanced it isn't even funny. It would be a different picture if most people they could replace me with (if they even find anyone) would negotiate 'properly'. But people don't - it doesn't make sense for any individual. Hence, unions. Also you bringing up the situation of unions in the US is nice and all, but this article is about Germany. You might want to research the situation there and reevaluate.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
>>You can have unions without the government mandating anything. Unions have no power in a free market, which is why unionization rates were so low until the unions successfully hoodwinked society into believing their victim narrative, and had the government pass laws in their favor. >>Here's an example: I know I'm worth considerably more to my employer than they're paying me, but were I to ask for appropriate compensation they'd rather let me go than pay up - because it would set a bad precedent. Any other employer I could turn to would do the same. Or they could pay you more and require that you to not disclose your pay raise to co-workers. If they don't pay market wages, their employees will resign to work for companies that do. There's no trick that companies can use to avoid paying market wages. Supply and demand are the dominant forces in determining wage levels, as centuries of empirical evidence shows. The free market is quite efficient, and as a consequence, laws that violate it typically reduce efficiency. EDIT, being rate limited so will respond to the below here: >>There's also no such thing as laws forcing employers to negotiate with unions Collective bargaining laws do precisely this. In the US, if the majority of a work unit votes to unionize, the company employing them MUST engage in collective bargaining with the entire work unit, and cannot fire them and replace them with workers who are not unionized. This basic violation of contract liberty is characterized by mainstream academia and so-called civil liberties organizations like the ACLU, in Orwellian fashion, as a human right, and has become institutionalized around the world. >>Because I've got a history book full of examples that say otherwise - of unions/guilds mattering even when facing opposition from the government. The power of guilds came entirely from government! The defining characteristic of a guild was an association of market providers who were granted, by government authorities, a market monopoly, to the exclusion of market providers not party to the guild.
- chmod775 5y ago
  > Unions have no power in a free market, which is why unionization rates were so low until the unions successfully hoodwinked society into believing their victim narrative, and had the government pass laws in their favor. Unions have been outlawed (or taken over by the state) at several points in German history. Nowadays guilds and unions don't enjoy many special protections except for such things as the basic right of people to form associations: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_9.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_9.html There's also no such thing as laws forcing employers to negotiate with unions. Employees who aren't part of the union in question are not subject to agreements negotiated between employer and unions: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tvg/__3.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tvg/__3.html Also about "Unions have no power in a free market"... do you really stand by that statement? Because I've got a history book full of examples that say otherwise - of unions/guilds mattering even when facing opposition from the government.