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Never read religious texts before, but I remember Oppenheimer's famous quote, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." What stuff might be interesting

Never read religious texts before, but I remember Oppenheimer's famous quote, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." What stuff might be interesting in Bhagavad Gita for a scientist like him?

launchiterate 5y ago
The Bhagavad Gita is really a philosophy of living life by calmly performing duty while being outcome independent. It’s one of the popular philosophies that discusses what is right action. Especially what is right action in extremely uncertain and difficult circumstances such as what Oppenheimer faced. The main protagonist of the Gita is a warrior facing his own kinsmen in the battlefield and his charioteer the symbolic representation of the divine guides him through his moral dilemma. Their dialogue is the Bhagavad Gita translated as “The song of the Lord”.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- caddybox 5y ago
  The Bhagavid Gita attempts to define a person's response to a life event by decomposing it into "dharma" and "karma". Dharma is external and is specified by a person's birth, caste, etc. (essentially societal factors) whereas Karma is more personal and rises out of actions from a man's conscious volition. It attempts to propose the right action by checking what is good dharma and good karma but as I've read in a beautiful introduction to the Mahabharata translation by John D. Smith, Dharma and Karma can often point in opposite directions. I thoroughly agree that the central idea of the Bhagavad Gita is to do your job without unnecessary worry or anxiety about the outcome. I've seen similar ideas in Epictetus's Enchiridion (put yourself to things in your control and forget about things beyond your power) and more recently in the notion of "separation of tasks" central to Alfred Adler's works. Irrespective of the source, the idea of focussing on my job without worrying about the outcome has been immensely helpful to me in moments of great anxiety and uncertainty.
  - eklavya 5y ago
    I think that’s really really wrong interpretation of it. It tells you your karma (actions) should always be dictated by your dharma (the right thing to do, nothing to do with caste btw, not sure how that got into the translation if it did). Krishna tells Arjun (the warrior being mentioned here) that it doesn’t matter that it’s your kinsmen including some which are the salt of the earth on the other side. You fight them because they are standing for adharma (injustice) and you should always stand for dharma (justice) no matter the personal cost.
    - unmole 5y ago
      > your dharma (the right thing to do, nothing to do with caste btw, not sure how that got into the translation if it did). The right thing to do is not universal. Dharma doesn't place the same responsibilities on a king and a peasant. Your dharma is dependent on your role in the larger order and thus on your caste. The Mahabharata itself has more than a hundred references to Kshatriya dharma which is unsurprising given its martial context.
      - naravara 5y ago
        It also seems a little cynical in places about how that specific conception of “Kshatriya dharma” plays out. Most of the central conflicts of the tale revolve around people being trapped by certain obligations stemming from hardline adherence to certain Kshatriya codes of honor. Towards the end there is a whole soliloquy where someone widowed by the war is heaping the blame for the carnage of Krishna and everyone involved in upholding what she believes to be insane adherence to codes of loyalty and never backing down on a promise once given. Krishna kind of receives it with a shrug, and eventually his own clan is annihilated by infighting and all the principal heroes of the tale save Yudistra perish with only the briefest and half-hearted eulogy that elucidates their main tragic flaw, like Arjuna’s vanity. In fact, Krishna’s whole purpose for incarnating is said to be a mission to “unburden the Earth” of these Kshatriyas and the ceaseless conflicts they brought to the world. So in a way the story is as much about the importance of Dharma as it is about the passing (and possible follies) of that rigid conception of Dharma from the world. The end of the conflict ushers in the Kali Yuga, an aeon of strife in which it is stated explicitly that what is and is not dharmic conduct becomes difficult to parse.
forgingahead 5y ago
What stuff might be interesting in Bhagavad Gita for a scientist like him? There shouldn't be an implication that science and religion are at odds - perhaps the cartoon interpretation of religion by some segments of intellectual society, but scientists of old were often struggling to reconcile their desire of increased knowledge of the physical world with their faiths. Isaac Newton for example, wrote more papers about religion than he did about science and math[0]: How much of Newton’s writing has survived? A huge amount. There’s roughly 10 million words that Newton left. Around half of the writing is religious, and there are about 1 million words on alchemical material, most of which is copies of other people’s stuff. There are about 1 million words related to his work as Master of the Mint. And then roughly 3 million related to science and math. [0]https://www.wired.com/2014/05/newton-papers-q-and-a/ https://www.wired.com/2014/05/newton-papers-q-and-a/
iamshs 5y ago
Bhagvad Gita is a proponent of just war. Ambiguity in Bhagvad Gita can be used to endorse any position you find yourself in. Act but don’t act - perfect text which gives ample manoeuvring space if you are feeling spiritual.
- Xplune13 5y ago
  Not really. War is definitely the context there as it is said that it was spoken during the war itself, but it lays out what to do at what time. It isn't ambiguous enough so that anyone can interpret it in any way. It lays out the scenarios and just states what is right to do in that scenario.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    The ambiguity lies in which scenario you're choosing as an analog to your present. And yes the Bhagavad Gita is great for justifying atrocities to the individual, hence why Himmler carried it around.
    - Xplune13 5y ago
      No. As with everything else in life, context is important. One can easily just read it and then proceed to justify their doings using it if they either don't know or choose to ignore the context of it. Whole of Bhagvad Gita was spoken during the Mahabharata War. It contains some overall guidance i.e. it can be applicable to normal day life as well as situational guidance on the context of the going war.
      - wolfretcrap 5y ago
        In mahabharata war countless men died. It was all justified by someone who goes by name Krishna in ancient text. Krishna origin is questionable as he's not one person throughout his history but fusion of multiple personalities which existed in past. Krishna could as well be a master manipulator who convinced other's that God and him are actually just one. Many Kings of that time actually did try to become God the prime example was Pondrak who believed he's the real Vasudev. His version couldn't survive because he lost the battle against Krishna. Mahabharata is not useful to for an average person, reading it will not enlighten you or anything. It's not a guide on how to live your life, it has many flaws, questionable ethics and morality defined in the text, bringing God into it to make beyond contest. If it had anything of use, India where this religious text is most popular would be epicenter of good behavior, technological advancements, ethics and morality. Is it? No it's far away from it. Before anyone questions my religion, I am Hindu from north India (Uttarakhand Purohit clan to be specific)
sudosysgen 5y ago
It's a useful thought framework to rid yourself of the anxiety of doing things you think are morally questionable.
svat 5y ago
See "The Gita of Robert Oppenheimer" by James Hijiya, Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society 144 (2) (June 2000): https://web.archive.org/web/20131126020921/http://www.amphilsoc.org/sites/default/files/proceedings/Hijiya.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20131126020921/http://www.amphil...
naravara 5y ago
Oppenheimer’s quote is, while not quite a mistranslation, incomplete. The original quote would more properly translate as an incarnation of “time” rather than “death.”
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
Side note, I understand that's a minor mistranslation: "Death" is more like "Time" (which eventually destroys all things). In that line, I imagine a Hindu analogue of Chronos -- Time the Reaper, which mows men down at the end of their season, like so much grass. Ozymandias as well. This, then, would have less to do with the explosive power of the Trinity test, and more to do with the decaying remnants of missile silos, which are already ruins.
kumarvvr 5y ago
The Bhagavid Gita is not a religious book. It's a philosophical treatise. It is a book that is to be analyzed, contemplated and debated. It clarifies on the way of the world, the duties of a human being, on how to decide what is right and wrong (or what is sin and not). Ultimately, it posits that what we suffer as humans, are essentially results of our own actions (karma). However these effects are not limited to the lifetime of the human form (because Gita posits that the human body is perishable, but the soul is non-perishable and carries forward the karmic effects). It puts the cause of human suffering on humans themselves and posits that to escape this never ending cycle of cause-reaction, detachment is the only way forward. Gita then explains what is detachment. How to be detached from our actions, thereby breaking the cycle of re-birth and ending our suffering. So, in the context of Oppenheimer, I speculate that his reading of Gita made him aware of his actions and the karmic effects of it on his soul. Background Note : Hinduism puts forth that this universe and our existence is not the outcome of some being / God. As, logically, speaking, if the universe came to be from the actions of some superior being, then it is implied that some higher being made this superior being, and the hierarchy goes on without end. Hinduism posits that this is absurd and that the universe is nothing but god. Every molecule, every atom, every soul is an expression of god.
- omarfarooq 5y ago
  > Background Note : Hinduism puts forth that this universe and our existence is not the outcome of some being / God. As, logically, speaking, if the universe came to be from the actions of some superior being, then it is implied that some higher being made this superior being, and the hierarchy goes on without end. Hinduism posits that this is absurd and that the universe is nothing but god. Every molecule, every atom, every soul is an expression of god. Your statements are directly refuted by the Gita itself: BG 10.39: I am the generating seed of all living beings, O Arjun. No creature moving or non-moving can exist without me. BG 10.42: What need is there for all this detailed knowledge, O Arjun? Simply know that by one fraction of my being, I pervade and support this entire creation. BG 10.8: I am the origin of all creation. Everything proceeds from me. The wise who know this perfectly worship me with great faith and devotion. There is no problem of infinite regress when God is defined as the uncaused cause. Neither is a scripture being both religious in nature and philosophical a mutual exclusivity.
alex_smart 5y ago
Anybody who is honest will tell you that Hindu religious texts are ultimately about justification for "varnashrama dharma". (Varnas are obviously a little different from its contemporary form - caste, but also shares many essential features. Namely, pre-determination of social status and broad occupations based on birth and endogamy, although it's more like a woman from a higher varna can not marry a man from a lower varna.) Why is Arjuna's dharma to fight? Because he is a Kshatriya. Why shouldn't Arjuna worry about what consequences the war might have on his family and society? Well, because Krishna himself is the upholder of Varnashrama Dharma. Arjuna should only worry about doing his duty, and not worry about such lofty matters.
- rramadass 5y ago
  >Hindu religious texts are ultimately about justification for "varnashrama dharma" No! That is a very shortsighted and narrow view of a complex and nuanced subject. For details, I recommend that you look into the works on Dharma and Ashrama System by the noted Indologist Patrick Olivelle.
rramadass 5y ago
>What stuff might be interesting in Bhagavad Gita for a scientist like him? A specific Worldview and cultivating a Mindset to go with it which takes Death and Total Destruction as part of a Universal Lifecycle.

launchiterate 5y ago

The Bhagavad Gita is really a philosophy of living life by calmly performing duty while being outcome independent. It’s one of the popular philosophies that discusses what is right action. Especially what is right action in extremely uncertain and difficult circumstances such as what Oppenheimer faced. The main protagonist of the Gita is a warrior facing his own kinsmen in the battlefield and his charioteer the symbolic representation of the divine guides him through his moral dilemma. Their dialogue is the Bhagavad Gita translated as “The song of the Lord”.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
caddybox 5y ago
The Bhagavid Gita attempts to define a person's response to a life event by decomposing it into "dharma" and "karma". Dharma is external and is specified by a person's birth, caste, etc. (essentially societal factors) whereas Karma is more personal and rises out of actions from a man's conscious volition. It attempts to propose the right action by checking what is good dharma and good karma but as I've read in a beautiful introduction to the Mahabharata translation by John D. Smith, Dharma and Karma can often point in opposite directions. I thoroughly agree that the central idea of the Bhagavad Gita is to do your job without unnecessary worry or anxiety about the outcome. I've seen similar ideas in Epictetus's Enchiridion (put yourself to things in your control and forget about things beyond your power) and more recently in the notion of "separation of tasks" central to Alfred Adler's works. Irrespective of the source, the idea of focussing on my job without worrying about the outcome has been immensely helpful to me in moments of great anxiety and uncertainty.
- eklavya 5y ago
  I think that’s really really wrong interpretation of it. It tells you your karma (actions) should always be dictated by your dharma (the right thing to do, nothing to do with caste btw, not sure how that got into the translation if it did). Krishna tells Arjun (the warrior being mentioned here) that it doesn’t matter that it’s your kinsmen including some which are the salt of the earth on the other side. You fight them because they are standing for adharma (injustice) and you should always stand for dharma (justice) no matter the personal cost.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > your dharma (the right thing to do, nothing to do with caste btw, not sure how that got into the translation if it did). The right thing to do is not universal. Dharma doesn't place the same responsibilities on a king and a peasant. Your dharma is dependent on your role in the larger order and thus on your caste. The Mahabharata itself has more than a hundred references to Kshatriya dharma which is unsurprising given its martial context.
    - naravara 5y ago
      It also seems a little cynical in places about how that specific conception of “Kshatriya dharma” plays out. Most of the central conflicts of the tale revolve around people being trapped by certain obligations stemming from hardline adherence to certain Kshatriya codes of honor. Towards the end there is a whole soliloquy where someone widowed by the war is heaping the blame for the carnage of Krishna and everyone involved in upholding what she believes to be insane adherence to codes of loyalty and never backing down on a promise once given. Krishna kind of receives it with a shrug, and eventually his own clan is annihilated by infighting and all the principal heroes of the tale save Yudistra perish with only the briefest and half-hearted eulogy that elucidates their main tragic flaw, like Arjuna’s vanity. In fact, Krishna’s whole purpose for incarnating is said to be a mission to “unburden the Earth” of these Kshatriyas and the ceaseless conflicts they brought to the world. So in a way the story is as much about the importance of Dharma as it is about the passing (and possible follies) of that rigid conception of Dharma from the world. The end of the conflict ushers in the Kali Yuga, an aeon of strife in which it is stated explicitly that what is and is not dharmic conduct becomes difficult to parse.

forgingahead 5y ago

What stuff might be interesting in Bhagavad Gita for a scientist like him? There shouldn't be an implication that science and religion are at odds - perhaps the cartoon interpretation of religion by some segments of intellectual society, but scientists of old were often struggling to reconcile their desire of increased knowledge of the physical world with their faiths. Isaac Newton for example, wrote more papers about religion than he did about science and math[0]: How much of Newton’s writing has survived? A huge amount. There’s roughly 10 million words that Newton left. Around half of the writing is religious, and there are about 1 million words on alchemical material, most of which is copies of other people’s stuff. There are about 1 million words related to his work as Master of the Mint. And then roughly 3 million related to science and math. [0]https://www.wired.com/2014/05/newton-papers-q-and-a/ https://www.wired.com/2014/05/newton-papers-q-and-a/

iamshs 5y ago

Bhagvad Gita is a proponent of just war. Ambiguity in Bhagvad Gita can be used to endorse any position you find yourself in. Act but don’t act - perfect text which gives ample manoeuvring space if you are feeling spiritual.

Xplune13 5y ago
Not really. War is definitely the context there as it is said that it was spoken during the war itself, but it lays out what to do at what time. It isn't ambiguous enough so that anyone can interpret it in any way. It lays out the scenarios and just states what is right to do in that scenario.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  The ambiguity lies in which scenario you're choosing as an analog to your present. And yes the Bhagavad Gita is great for justifying atrocities to the individual, hence why Himmler carried it around.
  - Xplune13 5y ago
    No. As with everything else in life, context is important. One can easily just read it and then proceed to justify their doings using it if they either don't know or choose to ignore the context of it. Whole of Bhagvad Gita was spoken during the Mahabharata War. It contains some overall guidance i.e. it can be applicable to normal day life as well as situational guidance on the context of the going war.
    - wolfretcrap 5y ago
      In mahabharata war countless men died. It was all justified by someone who goes by name Krishna in ancient text. Krishna origin is questionable as he's not one person throughout his history but fusion of multiple personalities which existed in past. Krishna could as well be a master manipulator who convinced other's that God and him are actually just one. Many Kings of that time actually did try to become God the prime example was Pondrak who believed he's the real Vasudev. His version couldn't survive because he lost the battle against Krishna. Mahabharata is not useful to for an average person, reading it will not enlighten you or anything. It's not a guide on how to live your life, it has many flaws, questionable ethics and morality defined in the text, bringing God into it to make beyond contest. If it had anything of use, India where this religious text is most popular would be epicenter of good behavior, technological advancements, ethics and morality. Is it? No it's far away from it. Before anyone questions my religion, I am Hindu from north India (Uttarakhand Purohit clan to be specific)

sudosysgen 5y ago

It's a useful thought framework to rid yourself of the anxiety of doing things you think are morally questionable.

svat 5y ago

See "The Gita of Robert Oppenheimer" by James Hijiya, Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society 144 (2) (June 2000): https://web.archive.org/web/20131126020921/http://www.amphilsoc.org/sites/default/files/proceedings/Hijiya.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20131126020921/http://www.amphil...

naravara 5y ago

Oppenheimer’s quote is, while not quite a mistranslation, incomplete. The original quote would more properly translate as an incarnation of “time” rather than “death.”

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

Side note, I understand that's a minor mistranslation: "Death" is more like "Time" (which eventually destroys all things). In that line, I imagine a Hindu analogue of Chronos -- Time the Reaper, which mows men down at the end of their season, like so much grass. Ozymandias as well. This, then, would have less to do with the explosive power of the Trinity test, and more to do with the decaying remnants of missile silos, which are already ruins.

kumarvvr 5y ago

The Bhagavid Gita is not a religious book. It's a philosophical treatise. It is a book that is to be analyzed, contemplated and debated. It clarifies on the way of the world, the duties of a human being, on how to decide what is right and wrong (or what is sin and not). Ultimately, it posits that what we suffer as humans, are essentially results of our own actions (karma). However these effects are not limited to the lifetime of the human form (because Gita posits that the human body is perishable, but the soul is non-perishable and carries forward the karmic effects). It puts the cause of human suffering on humans themselves and posits that to escape this never ending cycle of cause-reaction, detachment is the only way forward. Gita then explains what is detachment. How to be detached from our actions, thereby breaking the cycle of re-birth and ending our suffering. So, in the context of Oppenheimer, I speculate that his reading of Gita made him aware of his actions and the karmic effects of it on his soul. Background Note : Hinduism puts forth that this universe and our existence is not the outcome of some being / God. As, logically, speaking, if the universe came to be from the actions of some superior being, then it is implied that some higher being made this superior being, and the hierarchy goes on without end. Hinduism posits that this is absurd and that the universe is nothing but god. Every molecule, every atom, every soul is an expression of god.

omarfarooq 5y ago
> Background Note : Hinduism puts forth that this universe and our existence is not the outcome of some being / God. As, logically, speaking, if the universe came to be from the actions of some superior being, then it is implied that some higher being made this superior being, and the hierarchy goes on without end. Hinduism posits that this is absurd and that the universe is nothing but god. Every molecule, every atom, every soul is an expression of god. Your statements are directly refuted by the Gita itself: BG 10.39: I am the generating seed of all living beings, O Arjun. No creature moving or non-moving can exist without me. BG 10.42: What need is there for all this detailed knowledge, O Arjun? Simply know that by one fraction of my being, I pervade and support this entire creation. BG 10.8: I am the origin of all creation. Everything proceeds from me. The wise who know this perfectly worship me with great faith and devotion. There is no problem of infinite regress when God is defined as the uncaused cause. Neither is a scripture being both religious in nature and philosophical a mutual exclusivity.

alex_smart 5y ago

Anybody who is honest will tell you that Hindu religious texts are ultimately about justification for "varnashrama dharma". (Varnas are obviously a little different from its contemporary form - caste, but also shares many essential features. Namely, pre-determination of social status and broad occupations based on birth and endogamy, although it's more like a woman from a higher varna can not marry a man from a lower varna.) Why is Arjuna's dharma to fight? Because he is a Kshatriya. Why shouldn't Arjuna worry about what consequences the war might have on his family and society? Well, because Krishna himself is the upholder of Varnashrama Dharma. Arjuna should only worry about doing his duty, and not worry about such lofty matters.

rramadass 5y ago
>Hindu religious texts are ultimately about justification for "varnashrama dharma" No! That is a very shortsighted and narrow view of a complex and nuanced subject. For details, I recommend that you look into the works on Dharma and Ashrama System by the noted Indologist Patrick Olivelle.

rramadass 5y ago

>What stuff might be interesting in Bhagavad Gita for a scientist like him? A specific Worldview and cultivating a Mindset to go with it which takes Death and Total Destruction as part of a Universal Lifecycle.