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> I also have to cycle through often horrible weather(...) Except you do not, do you? If the weather is horrible more often than not and you still choose to

> I also *have* to cycle through often horrible weather(...) Except you do not, do you? If the weather is horrible more often than not and you still choose to bicycle then that is on you. Same goes for people who complain that their commute takes upto 2 hours. That is/was a choice you made when you chose your living arrangement and employer. I know I get downvoted for this opinion since it goes against majority of HN, but commute and office work are both really nice and I miss them. I hope come next month our office opens up and I can start going to work again. But my situation is way different. I've purposely chosen both my employer and my living situation to suite me. I have 15-25 minute drive to office. My gym is on the way and there is several choices of grocery stores, so I can get additional benefit for my commute. On top of that the 20 minutes of driving back home is very nice book end to day of working and I can leave the office completely behind me and just have a nice drive and listen some music. In same toon in the morning I can hit the gym and then have a nice drive to office and start focusing on the work immediately. It is fine if you don't like your commute or your office, but don't take it personally when someone says that they like it.

watwut 5y ago
You cut the sentence just before it turned out it is primarily complaint about drivers: > around drivers who I can only presume have WW2 fighter style marks for how may cyclists they've managed to run off the road Aggressive or unsafe driving is bad even if the author has the option to use other transport. It is bad also because to prevent people from using bikes.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Yeah exactly, I know lots of people who think I'm mad for cycling through an urban environment and it's everything to do with dangerous drivers rather than the environment itself. The key I've found is to be assertive but not aggressive, cars will dangerously pull out in front of you or overtake in a dangerous manner if you show the slightest lack of confidence or hesitation. It's not an easy thing to do as any cyclist will be acutely aware that Newton's laws of motion are not on their side! Having said that, I definitely think the pro-cyclist camp (which I do consider myself a part of) likes to ignore that there are a lot of utterly useless cyclists out there too. Riding on the pavement, jumping red lights, being obstructive in traffic just to prove a point for example. I wish all cyclists kept to the highway code religiously because the small minority of bad cyclists or overly militant evangelists seriously damage the reputation of all cyclists, most of whom are simply ordinary people who want to get around without the expense or ecological footprint of driving. Cycling ought to simply be a means of getting around, as normal as walking or driving. I understand this is how it's seen in places like the Netherlands, which is a far better state of affairs than here where cyclists are basically seen as vegans on wheels with all the drama that entails. Cycling shouldn't be a political act; I don't want to tell anyone they can't use their car for example, I'm certainly not saying everyone has to take up cycling and replace every journey with it. I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do with their life choices, I just want to get to work without getting literally run off the road by a mental taxi driver or clipped by a pillock who thinks its important to save the 0.5 seconds it would have taken him to check his left mirror.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  I cut the relevant part since rest is obvious hyperbole. But since we are on the topic from my experience most of the crashes that involve bicyclists could have been easily prevented by the cyclist.
  - watwut 5y ago
    If you have multiple experiences of crashes with cyclists, the common variable is you. Most of us never crashed a car with cyclist.
    - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
      I've never crashed my car. However I've seen multiple times footage of bicyclist crashing with cars from both cyclist's point of view and from dash cams and the times cyclist couldn't do anything to prevent the crash can be counted with fingers from one hand.
      - watwut 5y ago
        Cyclist couldn't do anything is not a standard. People go to jail for causing crashes other person could have prevented. Cars crash every and participats could have done something else, but that is not how these situations are evaluated. The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving.
        nextlevelwizard 5y ago
        >The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving. aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving is done by both parties and seeing a cyclist dodge and weave around cars during rush hour doesn't really leave much to imagination why their insurance premiums are higher.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ghaff 5y ago
I didn't see them taking anything personally. Most people who are planning to go fully remote (or were already) have absolutely no issue with people who want to work in an office however many days a week. I know I don't. However I think it's also true that at least some people who are anxious to get back to the office are visualizing a pre-pandemic office. And at many companies, it's going to be more along the lines of a fair number of people having gone full remote and others coming in 2 or 3 days a week.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  I didn't mean that they took it personally. That wasn't my intention. However I've often just commented "I can't wait to get to office again" and received downvotes and hostile comments on HN.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I think for some people it's just their way of saying "not me." And others probably read it as "I can't wait to get everyone I work with back in the office" whether intended in that spirit or not. I do think some will be disappointed by what "the office" looks and feels like at many places post-pandemic.
bserge 5y ago
It is fine if you like your commute or your office, but don't take it personally when someone says that they don't like it.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  I don't, but just look at the downvotes my comment receives without any counter arguments. Preferring office to remote work is literally wrong think on HN.
nerdponx 5y ago
> I've purposely chosen both my employer and my living situation to suite me. You're very fortunate to have had both the opportunity and ability to do this. Many people are not. HN users with their top-of-market salaries and offices in downtown centers tend to forget this.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  That's the thing. I do not have top of the market sallary and I do not live center of any city. If I was just after money then I would have to live with that choice and live in way more expensive city or commute for way longer time.
  - VelkaMorava 5y ago
    Okay. You know Svitavy? I thought so, because it's a small city in the Czech republic. There are about 5 guys there which have bussineses in various sectors. They all know each other. If you screw up badly in one job, you are not gonna get hired anywere. "But why won't you move to Prague?" you ask. Because in Svitavy you get about 13-15k CZK netto/month. Rent in Prague for a reasonable studio apartment is about 11-12k (for reference - 9k for rent + 2,5k for utilities - https://www.sreality.cz/detail/pronajem/byt/1+kk/praha-kobylisy-kubikova/1388243804#img=0&fullscreen=false https://www.sreality.cz/detail/pronajem/byt/1+kk/praha-kobyl...). Realistically the apartment is gonna be higher than that, because there are already 50 people who are willing to pay more than the said 9k for the linked one. You need about 4k a month for food. 500 CZK for phone + internet if you are cheap etc. So in my example scenario, let's say you are saving 1k while in Svitavy, which is about right. You can't just go to Prague for job interview during your day job at a sweat shop. After a year you are gonna have 3/4 of living costs in Prague. If you are anything else than a programmer or IT guy, you are not gonna find a job in 2-3 months, possibly 6. So unless you inherit something or take a loan to risk it all, you are stuck in Svitavy. Have a bit more empathy, nextlevelpíčo.
    - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
      I don't know what you think you are arguing about. You are just throwing random made up situation about some backward ass town and comparing it to expensive capital city as if there aren't anything in between. I live in a city of ~27k people and I work in the neighboring city of ~43k people. If you are making less than 600€/mo (as you are indicating) then you probably should look for a better job first before worrying about having to commute. Czech is also part of EU, so you can work in better countries if no one in Czech is paying better salaries (which sounds odd). >nextlevelpíčo Calling me names isn't helping your case, buddy.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
I don't really have a choice, the public transport is disgracefully bad everywhere near my job (the bus is often 30-40 minutes late and comes every hour and a half, completely unacceptable for commuting on) and I currently don't have a driver's licence as a result of medical issues (that are now resolved but the backlog for tests is enormous after the pandemic). Also (and this is a general accusation, not a personal one!) it's easy for people who are homeowners to lecture others about sensibly choosing where to live, but for those of us with little prospect of getting on the housing ladder near their pre-covid jobs this line of argument does tend to grate. Being at the mercy of often predatory landlords is never a good position to be in, so I do take it a little personally when people call out for an end to remote work being the norm and a return to the old way of things. For many, remote work has been an adjustment of power away from bosses and landlords and towards employees which is something I don't think should be thrown away cheaply.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
For the record, I don't really choose to cycle. Public transport is absolutely dreadful in much of the UK outside of London (I'm not exaggerating when I say it's an hour and a half to go six miles on a bus that often is 30-40 minutes late or doesn't turn up at all) and I don't have a driver's licence for medical reasons. These medical issues are now controlled, but the post-lockdown backlog for driving tests is insane so that's not an immediate option for me. At any rate it's wrong from a disability rights point of view to assume that driving is an option for everyone.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  As I said there are other choices than just mode of transport. You could move closer to your office or find fully remote work or employer that has office in another city where you can move closer to the office or that has better public transport.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    Yes, and for me that choice is to move away from companies that insist on commuting in favour of companies that are less Luddite in their approach to remote work which is what I'm actively doing. I have zero desire to live in a city and zero desire to ever set foot in an office again, and I know that many other people in our sector feel them same. Provided enough people stick to their guns on this, commuting and office work can be a genuine choice rather than something people are coerced into which I think will be a hugely positive thing for society. I suspect it'll benefit people who actually enjoy the rat race too, because the offices will be empty of people like me who'd rather work in their own space and instead be populated exclusively by people who actually want to be there. I'm not saying people like you shouldn't get to go to the office if you want to, but I am saying that people like me shouldn't be forced to for no reason other than seagull managers fearing their authority might be eroded by remote work. I literally only live near an urban area because I had to pre-COVID as remote jobs were few and far between. I'd far, far rather be in a cottage in the Welsh mountains or on a sailing boat slowly working around Britain. Urban life in general is something about as appealing to me as a sudden brain haemorrhage, which I think is an aspect in the motivations of many pro-WFH people that a lot of anti-WFH people fail to grasp. Lots of people live in urban areas because they had to, not because they wanted to and WFH provides an excellent route to finally escape the modern "dark Satanic mills" for good.

> I also *have* to cycle through often horrible weather(...) Except you do not, do you? If the weather is horrible more often than not and you still choose to

watwut 5y ago

You cut the sentence just before it turned out it is primarily complaint about drivers: > around drivers who I can only presume have WW2 fighter style marks for how may cyclists they've managed to run off the road Aggressive or unsafe driving is bad even if the author has the option to use other transport. It is bad also because to prevent people from using bikes.

BoxOfRain 5y ago
Yeah exactly, I know lots of people who think I'm mad for cycling through an urban environment and it's everything to do with dangerous drivers rather than the environment itself. The key I've found is to be assertive but not aggressive, cars will dangerously pull out in front of you or overtake in a dangerous manner if you show the slightest lack of confidence or hesitation. It's not an easy thing to do as any cyclist will be acutely aware that Newton's laws of motion are not on their side! Having said that, I definitely think the pro-cyclist camp (which I do consider myself a part of) likes to ignore that there are a lot of utterly useless cyclists out there too. Riding on the pavement, jumping red lights, being obstructive in traffic just to prove a point for example. I wish all cyclists kept to the highway code religiously because the small minority of bad cyclists or overly militant evangelists seriously damage the reputation of all cyclists, most of whom are simply ordinary people who want to get around without the expense or ecological footprint of driving. Cycling ought to simply be a means of getting around, as normal as walking or driving. I understand this is how it's seen in places like the Netherlands, which is a far better state of affairs than here where cyclists are basically seen as vegans on wheels with all the drama that entails. Cycling shouldn't be a political act; I don't want to tell anyone they can't use their car for example, I'm certainly not saying everyone has to take up cycling and replace every journey with it. I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do with their life choices, I just want to get to work without getting literally run off the road by a mental taxi driver or clipped by a pillock who thinks its important to save the 0.5 seconds it would have taken him to check his left mirror.
nextlevelwizard 5y ago
I cut the relevant part since rest is obvious hyperbole. But since we are on the topic from my experience most of the crashes that involve bicyclists could have been easily prevented by the cyclist.
- watwut 5y ago
  If you have multiple experiences of crashes with cyclists, the common variable is you. Most of us never crashed a car with cyclist.
  - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
    I've never crashed my car. However I've seen multiple times footage of bicyclist crashing with cars from both cyclist's point of view and from dash cams and the times cyclist couldn't do anything to prevent the crash can be counted with fingers from one hand.
    - watwut 5y ago
      Cyclist couldn't do anything is not a standard. People go to jail for causing crashes other person could have prevented. Cars crash every and participats could have done something else, but that is not how these situations are evaluated. The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving.
      - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
        >The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving. aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving is done by both parties and seeing a cyclist dodge and weave around cars during rush hour doesn't really leave much to imagination why their insurance premiums are higher.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

ghaff 5y ago

I didn't see them taking anything personally. Most people who are planning to go fully remote (or were already) have absolutely no issue with people who want to work in an office however many days a week. I know I don't. However I think it's also true that at least some people who are anxious to get back to the office are visualizing a pre-pandemic office. And at many companies, it's going to be more along the lines of a fair number of people having gone full remote and others coming in 2 or 3 days a week.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
I didn't mean that they took it personally. That wasn't my intention. However I've often just commented "I can't wait to get to office again" and received downvotes and hostile comments on HN.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I think for some people it's just their way of saying "not me." And others probably read it as "I can't wait to get everyone I work with back in the office" whether intended in that spirit or not. I do think some will be disappointed by what "the office" looks and feels like at many places post-pandemic.

bserge 5y ago

It is fine if you like your commute or your office, but don't take it personally when someone says that they don't like it.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
I don't, but just look at the downvotes my comment receives without any counter arguments. Preferring office to remote work is literally wrong think on HN.

nerdponx 5y ago

> I've purposely chosen both my employer and my living situation to suite me. You're very fortunate to have had both the opportunity and ability to do this. Many people are not. HN users with their top-of-market salaries and offices in downtown centers tend to forget this.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
That's the thing. I do not have top of the market sallary and I do not live center of any city. If I was just after money then I would have to live with that choice and live in way more expensive city or commute for way longer time.
- VelkaMorava 5y ago
  Okay. You know Svitavy? I thought so, because it's a small city in the Czech republic. There are about 5 guys there which have bussineses in various sectors. They all know each other. If you screw up badly in one job, you are not gonna get hired anywere. "But why won't you move to Prague?" you ask. Because in Svitavy you get about 13-15k CZK netto/month. Rent in Prague for a reasonable studio apartment is about 11-12k (for reference - 9k for rent + 2,5k for utilities - https://www.sreality.cz/detail/pronajem/byt/1+kk/praha-kobylisy-kubikova/1388243804#img=0&fullscreen=false https://www.sreality.cz/detail/pronajem/byt/1+kk/praha-kobyl...). Realistically the apartment is gonna be higher than that, because there are already 50 people who are willing to pay more than the said 9k for the linked one. You need about 4k a month for food. 500 CZK for phone + internet if you are cheap etc. So in my example scenario, let's say you are saving 1k while in Svitavy, which is about right. You can't just go to Prague for job interview during your day job at a sweat shop. After a year you are gonna have 3/4 of living costs in Prague. If you are anything else than a programmer or IT guy, you are not gonna find a job in 2-3 months, possibly 6. So unless you inherit something or take a loan to risk it all, you are stuck in Svitavy. Have a bit more empathy, nextlevelpíčo.
  - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
    I don't know what you think you are arguing about. You are just throwing random made up situation about some backward ass town and comparing it to expensive capital city as if there aren't anything in between. I live in a city of ~27k people and I work in the neighboring city of ~43k people. If you are making less than 600€/mo (as you are indicating) then you probably should look for a better job first before worrying about having to commute. Czech is also part of EU, so you can work in better countries if no one in Czech is paying better salaries (which sounds odd). >nextlevelpíčo Calling me names isn't helping your case, buddy.

BoxOfRain 5y ago

I don't really have a choice, the public transport is disgracefully bad everywhere near my job (the bus is often 30-40 minutes late and comes every hour and a half, completely unacceptable for commuting on) and I currently don't have a driver's licence as a result of medical issues (that are now resolved but the backlog for tests is enormous after the pandemic). Also (and this is a general accusation, not a personal one!) it's easy for people who are homeowners to lecture others about sensibly choosing where to live, but for those of us with little prospect of getting on the housing ladder near their pre-covid jobs this line of argument does tend to grate. Being at the mercy of often predatory landlords is never a good position to be in, so I do take it a little personally when people call out for an end to remote work being the norm and a return to the old way of things. For many, remote work has been an adjustment of power away from bosses and landlords and towards employees which is something I don't think should be thrown away cheaply.

BoxOfRain 5y ago

For the record, I don't really choose to cycle. Public transport is absolutely dreadful in much of the UK outside of London (I'm not exaggerating when I say it's an hour and a half to go six miles on a bus that often is 30-40 minutes late or doesn't turn up at all) and I don't have a driver's licence for medical reasons. These medical issues are now controlled, but the post-lockdown backlog for driving tests is insane so that's not an immediate option for me. At any rate it's wrong from a disability rights point of view to assume that driving is an option for everyone.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
As I said there are other choices than just mode of transport. You could move closer to your office or find fully remote work or employer that has office in another city where you can move closer to the office or that has better public transport.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Yes, and for me that choice is to move away from companies that insist on commuting in favour of companies that are less Luddite in their approach to remote work which is what I'm actively doing. I have zero desire to live in a city and zero desire to ever set foot in an office again, and I know that many other people in our sector feel them same. Provided enough people stick to their guns on this, commuting and office work can be a genuine choice rather than something people are coerced into which I think will be a hugely positive thing for society. I suspect it'll benefit people who actually enjoy the rat race too, because the offices will be empty of people like me who'd rather work in their own space and instead be populated exclusively by people who actually want to be there. I'm not saying people like you shouldn't get to go to the office if you want to, but I am saying that people like me shouldn't be forced to for no reason other than seagull managers fearing their authority might be eroded by remote work. I literally only live near an urban area because I had to pre-COVID as remote jobs were few and far between. I'd far, far rather be in a cottage in the Welsh mountains or on a sailing boat slowly working around Britain. Urban life in general is something about as appealing to me as a sudden brain haemorrhage, which I think is an aspect in the motivations of many pro-WFH people that a lot of anti-WFH people fail to grasp. Lots of people live in urban areas because they had to, not because they wanted to and WFH provides an excellent route to finally escape the modern "dark Satanic mills" for good.