5 ms·

Empty Epsilon: a fully open-source spaceship bridge simulator game

178 points by marcodiego 5y ago

EamonnMR 5y ago
Of the bridge sims we tried to set up at work, this one was the most successful.
bovermyer 5y ago
Artemis (on which this is based, if loosely) is most fun when you have hardware built to simulate the environment of a bridge. Recently, the most involved bridge setup for Artemis I've ever seen - present at Convergence and other geek conventions in the Midwest - was given up for adoption, owing to its enormous size and the owner's desire to reclaim garage space. Truly huge, since it was room-sized. I would have liked to take it but I don't have the space.
- emacsen 5y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think Artemis is prettier, but the gameplay of EE is far superior. By prettier, I mean the visuals, the models, the music, etc.
rektide 5y ago
Not intended as a simulationistic game at all, but one of the funnest multiplayer asymmetric ship combat games I ever played was Subspace, or now, Subspace Continuum[1]. In some game modes you could "join" another ship in the 2d universe, manning a separate set of guns, while the primary pilot flew around & blasted as usual. It was a force multiplier, a blast joining a huge floating blob. But also, all it took was a couple well placed shots & your whole blob was toast! There's also Guns of Icarus[2], where you are a crew member on a flying steampunk airship. You move around between stations, which let you pilot, shoot, repair systems, which does have more of the asymmetric break down of responsibilities. It sort of feels like you're playing a FTL character, in a 3D, steampunk, desert planet environment. Overall I think there's a lot of interesting opportunities in asymmetric gameplay, in exploring how to game together by creating different roles that have to collaborate. [1] https://subspace-continuum.com/ https://subspace-continuum.com/ [2] https://gunsoficarus.com/ https://gunsoficarus.com/
- Tyr42 5y ago
  Lovers in a dangerous spacetime is also a fun couch coop with different roles in a 2D spaceship. Each of the 4 weapons platforms faces a different direction, so you need to run around to cover everything. And then there are engines and shields and the map and superweapon
- stronglikedan 5y ago
  > game together by creating different roles that have to collaborate Not like any of the games being discussed here, but this made me immediately think of Tribes 2. Each class had a role in winning, and you couldn't win without a team comprised of most of them. (Or maybe you could, but it was very, very difficult.)
  - ramses0 5y ago
    Midair has made the attempt (https://midair.gg/ https://midair.gg/ and "MidAir, Community Edition"), but is focusing on light-armor "capture the flag". They have a lot of the other "stuff" implemented, but it isn't/wasn't balanced by the time I got out of it. VGG!
dragontamer 5y ago
I played some bridge game at a convention a few years ago with my buddies. I wish I remembered the name... but the main issue was that it wasn't quite "hectic" enough to require so many people to be in so many different roles. I used to play Starcraft Brood War at low-levels of competitiveness (maybe ~120 APM or so, D-rank Team Liquid. Very low end of competitive). I also enjoy Factorio and Pikmin, so I'm no stranger to multitasking. Ideally, you want to have a game where so much is going on, that you *NEED* to split up the tasks to multiple teammates. I don't know, maybe have each of the players doing an "Overcook'd" style minigame, trying to do whatever their sections of the ship need to get done. So the idea is that each player needs to actually focus their mind on their minigame, but _ALSO_ needs to juggle the discussion with the captain / bridge. I can't imagine how a game like that would work, but... sitting around calmly in a "Star Trek" style bridge isn't very fun IMO. -------- I think we have an issue of expectations vs gameplay. Anything that requires a team of multiple humans would necessarily be incredibly hectic. (See DOTA, Counterstrike, Overwatch, and other team games). But on the other hand, there are people who want to role-play Star Trek scenarios, which isn't... very realistic from a team perspective. Just as combat in Hollywood is unrealistic (1 vs 5 fight is really a sequence of 1 vs 1 fights 5 times in a row: every enemy waiting their appropriate turn with the hero...) Star Trek scenes progress logically and simply, for the audience to follow. Its almost the opposite of the chaos that requires a command structure of any kind. "Archon" / Team Melee from Starcraft 2 / Starcraft Brood War was also a good bit of fun, since two humans playing 1-commander requires communication (make sure both players are going for the same build), and you naturally figure out how to split up work with your teammate. ---------- I guess a more appropriate "Bridge" game is "keep talking or the bomb explodes". At least for people who want "my" style of hectic team-based game with difficult communication going on. If someone can amp up the "difficulty" of bridge games up to this level, it'd be more interesting to me.
- mawise 5y ago
  Space Alert[1] (board game) is awesome for that sort of chaos. When I played with friends, we decided we needed a non-player captain to keep us on track even though it isn't in the rules. [1]: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38453/space-alert https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38453/space-alert
queuebert 5y ago
Apparently I've been living under a rock. What is up with all the spaceship bridge simulator stories lately?
- dragontamer 5y ago
  These bridge simulator games have been going on for at least 8 years, by my count. With rivals setting up shop next to each other in various conventions. Hacker News does have this thing where if you see one story you like, people often post similar stories in the hours following.
  - smcameron 5y ago
    In this case, the same user posted both of them.
macintux 5y ago
Recent discussion regarding a similar(?) game: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28343941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28343941
trynewideas 5y ago
There's an active forum for bridge sims that's the de facto community space for EmptyEpsilon: https://bridgesim.net/categories/emptyepsilon https://bridgesim.net/categories/emptyepsilon There's a Discord that assembles online games run by United Stellar Navy (it's officially an role-playing community, but the EmptyEpsilon games aren't heavy on it): https://www.unitedstellarnavy.net https://www.unitedstellarnavy.net They organized a few 50+ player games last year, which have some videos on YouTube. A bit chaotic without context, but if you want to see the upper scope of gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHExJWYB8CM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHExJWYB8CM EmptyEpsilon also has traction as a LARP platform, thanks in parts to being pretty straightforward to modify in source, using Lua to script scenarios, and having a rudimentary optional HTTP API to trigger scenario events, manipulate game state, and control player stations. A Finnish group used EE in their large 2019 LARP event Odysseus: http://www.odysseuslarp.com http://www.odysseuslarp.com The custom backend for the tech, which included several systems and physical interfaces outside of EE that interfaced with the game, got a good talk at RopeCon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE7j1SgUpKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE7j1SgUpKs A French LARP scene has an active fork with features more geared toward that usage: https://github.com/tdelc/EmptyEpsilon https://github.com/tdelc/EmptyEpsilon
beprogrammed 5y ago
Some really great and interesting open source games being posted on here lately.
techbear 5y ago
Artemis dev here. I think very highly of Empty Epsilon and the other spaceship bridge games. I'm currently hard at work on Artemis 3, which is a ground-up re-write, using Python for embedded scripting.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  Open source it!
  - smcameron 5y ago
    I might be speaking out of turn here, but I think techbear actually makes money from Artemis, and it's kind of his job, so this is unlikely. Me (Space Nerds in Space author) and Daid (Empty Epsilon author) just have our projects as hobbies and I can't speak for Daid, but I make between $15 and $20 per month from SNIS from a handful of wonderful patrons. I'd be surprised if Daid makes a lot more than that (but even more surprised if he makes less, as EE is much more popular than SNIS). Open source games just don't seem to work very well as a reasonable source of income, and it's generally a mistake to treat them as income sources. Nobody needs them, and nobody feels an obligation to pay for them (they're free software after all -- why would anyone pay for them? Isn't a part of the point of free software that you don't have to pay for them? Arguably a bigger point is freedom to modify, but the not paying part is nice too, and realistically, more people are "not paying" than are "modifying".) Is there any open source game that makes its author a living? I'm not aware of one. It's hard to make money from any open source project, but open source games are especially difficult in that regard, in my experience. And to be clear, I actually value the "modifying" part more then the "paying" part. If someone sends me a patch, it definitely makes my day.
    - marcodiego 5y ago
      ID software continued their game engine business even after open sourcing them. There's also the possibility of open sourcing the engine and keep the art or servers paid. Also consider Ryzom.
mLuby 5y ago
Bridge sims seem to be having a moment; awesome! To Empty Epsilon's ranks, I'll add a few computer games I've come across: - Pulsar: Lost Colony (https://youtu.be/p0HW9-VTCZg?t=110 https://youtu.be/p0HW9-VTCZg?t=110) - Carrier Command 2 - Space Crew - Artemis Spaceship Bridge Simulator - Captain Sonar (board game) - Barotrauma (sort of) - Starship Horizons Any good ones I've missed?
- s5300 5y ago
  I think it's been close to an actual decade since I've played Artemis. It was definitely fun LAN at the time.
- trynewideas 5y ago
  - Star Trek: Bridge Crew - Space Nerds in Space (previously on HN) - Thorium https://nova.thoriumsim.com https://nova.thoriumsim.com - Objects in Space (abandonware) https://store.steampowered.com/app/824070/Objects_in_Space/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/824070/Objects_in_Space/ There's also a hard-to-find book from 1978, "The Complete Star Ship: A Simulation Project" by Roger Garrett, that included a pseudocode implementation of a bridge simulator. https://www.biblio.com/9780918398109 https://www.biblio.com/9780918398109
  - mLuby 5y ago
    Thanks, I'll check those out! Loved Objects in Space (wish they'd open-source it or let modders at it) but it's single player. Unless… maybe my definition of bridge simulator is wrong? I thought they're inherently multiplayer, and having hardware tie-ins (which I what Objects in Space had) weren't a core feature of the genre.

178 points by marcodiego 5y ago

Of the bridge sims we tried to set up at work, this one was the most successful.

Artemis (on which this is based, if loosely) is most fun when you have hardware built to simulate the environment of a bridge. Recently, the most involved bridge setup for Artemis I've ever seen - present at Convergence and other geek conventions in the Midwest - was given up for adoption, owing to its enormous size and the owner's desire to reclaim garage space. Truly huge, since it was room-sized. I would have liked to take it but I don't have the space.

emacsen 5y ago
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think Artemis is prettier, but the gameplay of EE is far superior. By prettier, I mean the visuals, the models, the music, etc.

rektide 5y ago

Not intended as a simulationistic game at all, but one of the funnest multiplayer asymmetric ship combat games I ever played was Subspace, or now, Subspace Continuum[1]. In some game modes you could "join" another ship in the 2d universe, manning a separate set of guns, while the primary pilot flew around & blasted as usual. It was a force multiplier, a blast joining a huge floating blob. But also, all it took was a couple well placed shots & your whole blob was toast! There's also Guns of Icarus[2], where you are a crew member on a flying steampunk airship. You move around between stations, which let you pilot, shoot, repair systems, which does have more of the asymmetric break down of responsibilities. It sort of feels like you're playing a FTL character, in a 3D, steampunk, desert planet environment. Overall I think there's a lot of interesting opportunities in asymmetric gameplay, in exploring how to game together by creating different roles that have to collaborate. [1] https://subspace-continuum.com/ https://subspace-continuum.com/ [2] https://gunsoficarus.com/ https://gunsoficarus.com/

Tyr42 5y ago
Lovers in a dangerous spacetime is also a fun couch coop with different roles in a 2D spaceship. Each of the 4 weapons platforms faces a different direction, so you need to run around to cover everything. And then there are engines and shields and the map and superweapon
stronglikedan 5y ago
> game together by creating different roles that have to collaborate Not like any of the games being discussed here, but this made me immediately think of Tribes 2. Each class had a role in winning, and you couldn't win without a team comprised of most of them. (Or maybe you could, but it was very, very difficult.)
- ramses0 5y ago
  Midair has made the attempt (https://midair.gg/ https://midair.gg/ and "MidAir, Community Edition"), but is focusing on light-armor "capture the flag". They have a lot of the other "stuff" implemented, but it isn't/wasn't balanced by the time I got out of it. VGG!

dragontamer 5y ago

I played some bridge game at a convention a few years ago with my buddies. I wish I remembered the name... but the main issue was that it wasn't quite "hectic" enough to require so many people to be in so many different roles. I used to play Starcraft Brood War at low-levels of competitiveness (maybe ~120 APM or so, D-rank Team Liquid. Very low end of competitive). I also enjoy Factorio and Pikmin, so I'm no stranger to multitasking. Ideally, you want to have a game where so much is going on, that you *NEED* to split up the tasks to multiple teammates. I don't know, maybe have each of the players doing an "Overcook'd" style minigame, trying to do whatever their sections of the ship need to get done. So the idea is that each player needs to actually focus their mind on their minigame, but _ALSO_ needs to juggle the discussion with the captain / bridge. I can't imagine how a game like that would work, but... sitting around calmly in a "Star Trek" style bridge isn't very fun IMO. -------- I think we have an issue of expectations vs gameplay. Anything that requires a team of multiple humans would necessarily be incredibly hectic. (See DOTA, Counterstrike, Overwatch, and other team games). But on the other hand, there are people who want to role-play Star Trek scenarios, which isn't... very realistic from a team perspective. Just as combat in Hollywood is unrealistic (1 vs 5 fight is really a sequence of 1 vs 1 fights 5 times in a row: every enemy waiting their appropriate turn with the hero...) Star Trek scenes progress logically and simply, for the audience to follow. Its almost the opposite of the chaos that requires a command structure of any kind. "Archon" / Team Melee from Starcraft 2 / Starcraft Brood War was also a good bit of fun, since two humans playing 1-commander requires communication (make sure both players are going for the same build), and you naturally figure out how to split up work with your teammate. ---------- I guess a more appropriate "Bridge" game is "keep talking or the bomb explodes". At least for people who want "my" style of hectic team-based game with difficult communication going on. If someone can amp up the "difficulty" of bridge games up to this level, it'd be more interesting to me.

mawise 5y ago
Space Alert[1] (board game) is awesome for that sort of chaos. When I played with friends, we decided we needed a non-player captain to keep us on track even though it isn't in the rules. [1]: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38453/space-alert https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38453/space-alert

queuebert 5y ago

Apparently I've been living under a rock. What is up with all the spaceship bridge simulator stories lately?

dragontamer 5y ago
These bridge simulator games have been going on for at least 8 years, by my count. With rivals setting up shop next to each other in various conventions. Hacker News does have this thing where if you see one story you like, people often post similar stories in the hours following.
- smcameron 5y ago
  In this case, the same user posted both of them.

macintux 5y ago

Recent discussion regarding a similar(?) game: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28343941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28343941

trynewideas 5y ago

There's an active forum for bridge sims that's the de facto community space for EmptyEpsilon: https://bridgesim.net/categories/emptyepsilon https://bridgesim.net/categories/emptyepsilon There's a Discord that assembles online games run by United Stellar Navy (it's officially an role-playing community, but the EmptyEpsilon games aren't heavy on it): https://www.unitedstellarnavy.net https://www.unitedstellarnavy.net They organized a few 50+ player games last year, which have some videos on YouTube. A bit chaotic without context, but if you want to see the upper scope of gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHExJWYB8CM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHExJWYB8CM EmptyEpsilon also has traction as a LARP platform, thanks in parts to being pretty straightforward to modify in source, using Lua to script scenarios, and having a rudimentary optional HTTP API to trigger scenario events, manipulate game state, and control player stations. A Finnish group used EE in their large 2019 LARP event Odysseus: http://www.odysseuslarp.com http://www.odysseuslarp.com The custom backend for the tech, which included several systems and physical interfaces outside of EE that interfaced with the game, got a good talk at RopeCon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE7j1SgUpKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE7j1SgUpKs A French LARP scene has an active fork with features more geared toward that usage: https://github.com/tdelc/EmptyEpsilon https://github.com/tdelc/EmptyEpsilon

beprogrammed 5y ago

Some really great and interesting open source games being posted on here lately.

techbear 5y ago

Artemis dev here. I think very highly of Empty Epsilon and the other spaceship bridge games. I'm currently hard at work on Artemis 3, which is a ground-up re-write, using Python for embedded scripting.

marcodiego 5y ago
Open source it!
- smcameron 5y ago
  I might be speaking out of turn here, but I think techbear actually makes money from Artemis, and it's kind of his job, so this is unlikely. Me (Space Nerds in Space author) and Daid (Empty Epsilon author) just have our projects as hobbies and I can't speak for Daid, but I make between $15 and $20 per month from SNIS from a handful of wonderful patrons. I'd be surprised if Daid makes a lot more than that (but even more surprised if he makes less, as EE is much more popular than SNIS). Open source games just don't seem to work very well as a reasonable source of income, and it's generally a mistake to treat them as income sources. Nobody needs them, and nobody feels an obligation to pay for them (they're free software after all -- why would anyone pay for them? Isn't a part of the point of free software that you don't have to pay for them? Arguably a bigger point is freedom to modify, but the not paying part is nice too, and realistically, more people are "not paying" than are "modifying".) Is there any open source game that makes its author a living? I'm not aware of one. It's hard to make money from any open source project, but open source games are especially difficult in that regard, in my experience. And to be clear, I actually value the "modifying" part more then the "paying" part. If someone sends me a patch, it definitely makes my day.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    ID software continued their game engine business even after open sourcing them. There's also the possibility of open sourcing the engine and keep the art or servers paid. Also consider Ryzom.

mLuby 5y ago

Bridge sims seem to be having a moment; awesome! To Empty Epsilon's ranks, I'll add a few computer games I've come across: - Pulsar: Lost Colony (https://youtu.be/p0HW9-VTCZg?t=110 https://youtu.be/p0HW9-VTCZg?t=110) - Carrier Command 2 - Space Crew - Artemis Spaceship Bridge Simulator - Captain Sonar (board game) - Barotrauma (sort of) - Starship Horizons Any good ones I've missed?

s5300 5y ago
I think it's been close to an actual decade since I've played Artemis. It was definitely fun LAN at the time.
trynewideas 5y ago
- Star Trek: Bridge Crew - Space Nerds in Space (previously on HN) - Thorium https://nova.thoriumsim.com https://nova.thoriumsim.com - Objects in Space (abandonware) https://store.steampowered.com/app/824070/Objects_in_Space/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/824070/Objects_in_Space/ There's also a hard-to-find book from 1978, "The Complete Star Ship: A Simulation Project" by Roger Garrett, that included a pseudocode implementation of a bridge simulator. https://www.biblio.com/9780918398109 https://www.biblio.com/9780918398109
- mLuby 5y ago
  Thanks, I'll check those out! Loved Objects in Space (wish they'd open-source it or let modders at it) but it's single player. Unless… maybe my definition of bridge simulator is wrong? I thought they're inherently multiplayer, and having hardware tie-ins (which I what Objects in Space had) weren't a core feature of the genre.