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Do you really think geopolitics is based on morals? A much better case could be made that wars are really started over greed and fear. And that's what I was ta

Do you really think geopolitics is based on morals? A much better case could be made that wars are really started over greed and fear. And that's what I was talking about originally. This thread started with me objecting to the assertion that a justification for militarily defending Taiwan was to prevent China from attacking the West. I don't think they plan on attacking the West. What do they plan on doing? To know that requires thinking from their perspective. This is what the state department does. This is the level I was talking on. I personally think that the world would be a better place if citizens everywhere better understood the reasons for problems between nations. I don't think that this has anything to do with morality. I didn't bring morality up. I've studies a lot of history, and that doesn't appear to be how these things work. That's why the U.S. does many immoral things, supports many regimes that do immoral things, ignores many others, and changes their mind sometimes. Same as every other country. The bigger and more powerful a country is the more immoral they tend to become. Given all that it hardly makes sense to single out Taiwan for special treatment based on morals. If you want to go on discussing morality in relation to Taiwan you have a lot of contradictions to deal with, our support of Saudi Arabia for example, our abandonment of the Kurds, Afghanistan, etc. Morality is not why wars are fought. Morality is how wars are sold to the masses that have to suffer and pay for them. I apologize if you already know this and we are otherwise miscommunicating. So where do you want to go from here?

deleted 5y ago
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stale2002 5y ago
Look, if you just want to retreat entirely to a "might makes right" ideology, you can go ahead and do that. Just be aware, that if you do that, you can't complain about anything at all, regarding any moral issue, what so ever. And you cannot complain, when people, who actually do care about right or wrong, treat you equivalently to the worst of any political ideology that you can think of, and call you horrible political slurs, regarding the obvious bad ideologies that should immediately come to mind. If you want to bite the bullet on that, and say "yes, I dismiss any arguments at all, relating to morality, and the people who do care about that stuff, should definitely treat me like the obvious trope evil ideologies that come to mind", then fine. Just say that. But that is your position. Own it, and say it to the world, so that others can treat you, how they treat other such proponents of such ideologies.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > Look, if you just want to retreat entirely to a "might makes right" ideology, you can go ahead and do that. It's not an ideology. I'm saying that it's simply the way geopolitics works. The way things have been throughout history, including the modern era. It's what all the books on this topic talk about. Might does makes right when it comes to countries relations with each other. Countries act in their self interest. The strongest country gets their way. The law of the jungle. There's no judge or god for a country to appeal to or to enforce rules of morality. Ultimately there's only armies and allies. If the group of people running things in one country think they can dominate another country to their advantage, they do. That's why all large empires ultimately make so many enemies, causing their downfall. In this case I think that China wants to regain their traditional territory and expand their influence in their neighborhood region, and the U.S. doesn't want to give up an inch if they don't have to. At stake is economic and political influence in South East Asia. The rich and powerful care about that, not morality. I personally have a quite different ideology when it comes to these matters, but I'm not the one in charge. I wouldn't send people to fight a war over Taiwan. I don't think it's justified based on a fear of them attacking the West, nor because some people think China is evil. Is it better for China to quickly take Taiwan or for us to enable a war that could kill millions? If you want to raise money and hop on a plane to fight the Chinese over Taiwan, I'm cool with that. > Just be aware, that if you do that, you can't complain about anything at all, regarding any moral issue, what so ever. > And you cannot complain, when people, who actually do care about right or wrong, treat you equivalently to the worst of any political ideology that you can think of, and call you horrible political slurs, regarding the obvious bad ideologies that should immediately come to mind. I saw your comment above before you edited it. You seem to be quite emotional about this, and quite hostile towards me in this thread. You seem to look at international politics very differently than anything I've studied, and I'm not sure that I understand. I've tried to explain my understanding of the way the world works in this regard, but you haven't much explained how you think. Worst case I might assume that you just get enraged over whatever the news headlines tell you to, but that wouldn't be very charitable. I'm genuinely curious and have a lot of questions. How should a country choose what evil in the world to oppose, seeing as how there is so much? If we don't always confront evil, does that mean that other considerations are more important? Do you think that the leaders of countries think of good and evil in their calculations, or money and power? Does it bother you that the U.S. sometimes supports evil regimes? Or sometimes does evil things itself? I'm wondering if you have answers for any of these questions. I know a lot of people haven't thought much about this stuff.

deleted 5y ago

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stale2002 5y ago

Look, if you just want to retreat entirely to a "might makes right" ideology, you can go ahead and do that. Just be aware, that if you do that, you can't complain about anything at all, regarding any moral issue, what so ever. And you cannot complain, when people, who actually do care about right or wrong, treat you equivalently to the worst of any political ideology that you can think of, and call you horrible political slurs, regarding the obvious bad ideologies that should immediately come to mind. If you want to bite the bullet on that, and say "yes, I dismiss any arguments at all, relating to morality, and the people who do care about that stuff, should definitely treat me like the obvious trope evil ideologies that come to mind", then fine. Just say that. But that is your position. Own it, and say it to the world, so that others can treat you, how they treat other such proponents of such ideologies.

mikem170 5y ago
> Look, if you just want to retreat entirely to a "might makes right" ideology, you can go ahead and do that. It's not an ideology. I'm saying that it's simply the way geopolitics works. The way things have been throughout history, including the modern era. It's what all the books on this topic talk about. Might does makes right when it comes to countries relations with each other. Countries act in their self interest. The strongest country gets their way. The law of the jungle. There's no judge or god for a country to appeal to or to enforce rules of morality. Ultimately there's only armies and allies. If the group of people running things in one country think they can dominate another country to their advantage, they do. That's why all large empires ultimately make so many enemies, causing their downfall. In this case I think that China wants to regain their traditional territory and expand their influence in their neighborhood region, and the U.S. doesn't want to give up an inch if they don't have to. At stake is economic and political influence in South East Asia. The rich and powerful care about that, not morality. I personally have a quite different ideology when it comes to these matters, but I'm not the one in charge. I wouldn't send people to fight a war over Taiwan. I don't think it's justified based on a fear of them attacking the West, nor because some people think China is evil. Is it better for China to quickly take Taiwan or for us to enable a war that could kill millions? If you want to raise money and hop on a plane to fight the Chinese over Taiwan, I'm cool with that. > Just be aware, that if you do that, you can't complain about anything at all, regarding any moral issue, what so ever. > And you cannot complain, when people, who actually do care about right or wrong, treat you equivalently to the worst of any political ideology that you can think of, and call you horrible political slurs, regarding the obvious bad ideologies that should immediately come to mind. I saw your comment above before you edited it. You seem to be quite emotional about this, and quite hostile towards me in this thread. You seem to look at international politics very differently than anything I've studied, and I'm not sure that I understand. I've tried to explain my understanding of the way the world works in this regard, but you haven't much explained how you think. Worst case I might assume that you just get enraged over whatever the news headlines tell you to, but that wouldn't be very charitable. I'm genuinely curious and have a lot of questions. How should a country choose what evil in the world to oppose, seeing as how there is so much? If we don't always confront evil, does that mean that other considerations are more important? Do you think that the leaders of countries think of good and evil in their calculations, or money and power? Does it bother you that the U.S. sometimes supports evil regimes? Or sometimes does evil things itself? I'm wondering if you have answers for any of these questions. I know a lot of people haven't thought much about this stuff.