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To be honest, I don’t think a clean slate would solve the problem. Around the world, police lie. Salesmen lie. Politicians lie. Developers lie. Watchdogs lie. G

To be honest, I don’t think a clean slate would solve the problem. Around the world, police lie. Salesmen lie. Politicians lie. Developers lie. Watchdogs lie. Generals lie. Priests lie. And innocent people get hurt. You are right that you can’t eliminate it from the system with reform. But I don’t think a “clean slate” will do any better either. The goal is marginal improvements, better checks and balances, etc. If you can’t stop a man from lying, the next best thing is to be sure you can catch him.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Build robust systems for accountability and oversight. Trust but verify thoroughly. This discourages the casual deceiver, but also identifies the motivated.
- toiletaccount 5y ago
  ...and qualified immunity really needs to be gotten rid of, at least in its current form. there's no reason why a cop having a bad day should be able to ruin your life. also consider that as an citizen that's probably untrained in firearm use, you're liable for stray bullets that hit your neighbor when you shoot at a home intruder, while a cop is trained and on the clock, but has no such liability at all.
pope_meat 5y ago
Why not a clean slate and improvements/checks and balances together, because the current crop of cops have lost the faith of a lot of people. Google LAPD gangs.
France_is_bacon 5y ago
>And innocent people get hurt. You're saying that everyone lies except for "innocent people"? Where are these innocent people you speaketh of? There's no such thing as "innocent people." Everyone lies their asses off, everyone. There is no such thing as innocent.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
They could raise the requirements to become a cop, and change the structure of organization. 1. Require at least a bachelor's degree in anything. 2. Nix all paramilitary training. 3. Make each cop civilly/criminally legally liable for for their third screw up. 4. Hire only people over 25. 5. Dissuade military personal, including veterans, from thinking they have a job waiting for themselfs after their stint is up. (We do not need miitiary trained soldiers. We need Sociologists, and Psychologists.) 6. Cameras should be on every cop, without a way to turn the devise off. (Any complaints could then be verified by a third party.) 7. Get rid of all out little police squads. A cops would be federally licensed, and trained. Preferably stationed where they are needed. In my county of Marin, most are not needed. 8. And let's be honest. Most Cops are just Revenue Collectors. They are not going to be there to save our lives. To anyone saying, there won't be enough people applying for the job. Come on? There are a lot of people whom would like to become Police Officers. It usually those people, people who just want an honest job, whom are not hired. Get rid of all the cowboys, and hire level headed people. Ban all high speed chases, unless it involves a kidnapping. Require all police to obey every road law we are expected to abide. Make all uniforms Orange, or Pink. At least we could see them comming, and the bright colors might make the right people apply? 9. I'm not going to debate. I'm sick and tired of looking in my rear view mirror, or trying to figure out what hedge they are hiding behind. I'm as white as they come. I can't imagine what minorities have to put up with.
- avs733 5y ago
  I find this response really intriguing. We as citizens are perfectly capable of handling people lying to us...we do it with children, coworkers, salespeople, advertising, etc. Why is the standard response to fix the police. Obviously, they shouldn't lie, there should be consequences but the solutions don't start there. This works because people believe cops. Reporters take police reports as truth until proven otherwise. Juries (and judges) take the word of cops over the accused. The public generally treats things said by police as correct even despite evidence to the contrary. I would posit that we are the problem because the actions of the cops don't work unless we presume they are telling the truth. Fix the cops, sure, of course (especially 2, disarm them). But fix our society's interaction with them as well.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
I don't understand why lying by police, prosecutors or misbehavior by judges is not made into a serious crime that gets punished very harshly. These people are entrusted by society with a lot of power, often over death and life, so the standards should be very high.
- wpietri 5y ago
  You are wondering why police and prosecutors don't do more to arrest and convict police and prosecutors?
  - watwut 5y ago
    No. The complaint is about different rules being applied to cops or prosecutors. Not just enforcement. There is no qualified immunity for civilians. The cops and prosecutors can lie, civilians can't. A cop can shoot merely when he feels afraid, that excuse don't apply to civilians. Stuff like that. Then you have judges who should be impartial, but do in fact treat accused cops and prosecutors differently.
- pjc50 5y ago
  America's eccentric localism: there's no Federal Inspectorate Of Police to come in from out of town and do the prosecution. Within the local power structure the abuse of power is propped up because it supports power.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    There are a whole slew of federal laws that federal officials could use to charge local corrupt police officers. They just choose not to, because the FBI are cops too.
wpietri 5y ago
If you were correct, police departments around the world would be equally corrupt. But living in different cities and countries will quickly persuade you that's not the case. Marginal improvements can work if the people making the improvements agree on what "improvement" is. But expecting corrupt cops to get serious about stopping corrupt cops is different. A clean slate (plus structural improvements) may be your best bet.
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
Checks and balances don't work when the entire system is for the injustice. This isn't an issue with the system, but it's an issue with the people and how they feel police should be used against marginalized groups. Even when caught, every step of the system works to shield police from any form of accountability.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Build robust systems for accountability and oversight. Trust but verify thoroughly. This discourages the casual deceiver, but also identifies the motivated.

toiletaccount 5y ago
...and qualified immunity really needs to be gotten rid of, at least in its current form. there's no reason why a cop having a bad day should be able to ruin your life. also consider that as an citizen that's probably untrained in firearm use, you're liable for stray bullets that hit your neighbor when you shoot at a home intruder, while a cop is trained and on the clock, but has no such liability at all.

pope_meat 5y ago

Why not a clean slate and improvements/checks and balances together, because the current crop of cops have lost the faith of a lot of people. Google LAPD gangs.

France_is_bacon 5y ago

>And innocent people get hurt. You're saying that everyone lies except for "innocent people"? Where are these innocent people you speaketh of? There's no such thing as "innocent people." Everyone lies their asses off, everyone. There is no such thing as innocent.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

They could raise the requirements to become a cop, and change the structure of organization. 1. Require at least a bachelor's degree in anything. 2. Nix all paramilitary training. 3. Make each cop civilly/criminally legally liable for for their third screw up. 4. Hire only people over 25. 5. Dissuade military personal, including veterans, from thinking they have a job waiting for themselfs after their stint is up. (We do not need miitiary trained soldiers. We need Sociologists, and Psychologists.) 6. Cameras should be on every cop, without a way to turn the devise off. (Any complaints could then be verified by a third party.) 7. Get rid of all out little police squads. A cops would be federally licensed, and trained. Preferably stationed where they are needed. In my county of Marin, most are not needed. 8. And let's be honest. Most Cops are just Revenue Collectors. They are not going to be there to save our lives. To anyone saying, there won't be enough people applying for the job. Come on? There are a lot of people whom would like to become Police Officers. It usually those people, people who just want an honest job, whom are not hired. Get rid of all the cowboys, and hire level headed people. Ban all high speed chases, unless it involves a kidnapping. Require all police to obey every road law we are expected to abide. Make all uniforms Orange, or Pink. At least we could see them comming, and the bright colors might make the right people apply? 9. I'm not going to debate. I'm sick and tired of looking in my rear view mirror, or trying to figure out what hedge they are hiding behind. I'm as white as they come. I can't imagine what minorities have to put up with.

avs733 5y ago
I find this response really intriguing. We as citizens are perfectly capable of handling people lying to us...we do it with children, coworkers, salespeople, advertising, etc. Why is the standard response to fix the police. Obviously, they shouldn't lie, there should be consequences but the solutions don't start there. This works because people believe cops. Reporters take police reports as truth until proven otherwise. Juries (and judges) take the word of cops over the accused. The public generally treats things said by police as correct even despite evidence to the contrary. I would posit that we are the problem because the actions of the cops don't work unless we presume they are telling the truth. Fix the cops, sure, of course (especially 2, disarm them). But fix our society's interaction with them as well.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

I don't understand why lying by police, prosecutors or misbehavior by judges is not made into a serious crime that gets punished very harshly. These people are entrusted by society with a lot of power, often over death and life, so the standards should be very high.

wpietri 5y ago
You are wondering why police and prosecutors don't do more to arrest and convict police and prosecutors?
- watwut 5y ago
  No. The complaint is about different rules being applied to cops or prosecutors. Not just enforcement. There is no qualified immunity for civilians. The cops and prosecutors can lie, civilians can't. A cop can shoot merely when he feels afraid, that excuse don't apply to civilians. Stuff like that. Then you have judges who should be impartial, but do in fact treat accused cops and prosecutors differently.
pjc50 5y ago
America's eccentric localism: there's no Federal Inspectorate Of Police to come in from out of town and do the prosecution. Within the local power structure the abuse of power is propped up because it supports power.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  There are a whole slew of federal laws that federal officials could use to charge local corrupt police officers. They just choose not to, because the FBI are cops too.

wpietri 5y ago

If you were correct, police departments around the world would be equally corrupt. But living in different cities and countries will quickly persuade you that's not the case. Marginal improvements can work if the people making the improvements agree on what "improvement" is. But expecting corrupt cops to get serious about stopping corrupt cops is different. A clean slate (plus structural improvements) may be your best bet.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago

Checks and balances don't work when the entire system is for the injustice. This isn't an issue with the system, but it's an issue with the people and how they feel police should be used against marginalized groups. Even when caught, every step of the system works to shield police from any form of accountability.