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International law is a nice idea, but it only applies to countries that agree it applies to them. The only thing I want Iran to rely on is the certain knowledge

International law is a nice idea, but it only applies to countries that agree it applies to them. The only thing I want Iran to rely on is the certain knowledge that they will be prevented, by literally any means necessary, from developing nuclear weapons. EDIT: I guess there are those who disapprove of Stuxnet because it probably violated some laws. I think it was awesome.

whatshisface 5y ago
There's definitely no chance of a country agreeing to follow international law or even norms when the other signatories would take "any means necessary" to achieve their policy goals WRT them. The problem with your plan, even from an amoral realpolitik perspective, is that the Iranian program cannot be prevented forever with 100% certainty. There's a possible future world where they end up with nuclear weapons after 30 years of assassinations, and that's the world where they'd be the most likely to make use of them. There are a lot of ways it could happen - maybe they build two plants and the west only gets one of them, maybe North Korea makes a donation to the cause. Maybe they set up a bunch of innocent scientists in the secret but not secret nuclear theory department and let their enemies waste time clandestinely assassinating their theory group while they manufacture the real weapon based on plans obtained elsewhere. When you're killing civilians, you're in a state of war, and although being in a state of war has had very indirect consequences for the US over the past 50 years, that's not guaranteed to go on forever.
- leephillips 5y ago
  We are not talking about negotiable issues like access to shipping lanes. We are talking about preventing nuclear holocaust. Iran has repeatedly expressed its desire to obliterate another sovereign nation. I believe them. This is the opposite of amoral, it elevates moral imperatives over formalities. “Any means necessary” is not confined to assassinating individuals. We can, in fact, ensure that they are incapable of making nuclear bombs. A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    >A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel. Iran has about 80M innocent civilians living there. Even if you think of the leadership as holding them hostage (not too far from the truth for many countries...), that's a lot of hostages to sacrifice.
    - leephillips 5y ago
      Most of whom would be annihilated if Iran got into a nuclear exchange with Israel or another country. And I said nothing about “sacrificing” the population, just crippling the technology. Stuxnet had, I think, one casualty, but severely set back their nuclear program. You’re making a lot of assumptions, not to mention repeatedly editing your comments. Thanks for offering your opinions, but, for these reasons, I don’t think this conversation is going to be productive.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    >Iran has repeatedly expressed its desire to obliterate another sovereign nation Do you realize that stating we must use "any means necessary" to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear bomb is expressing the desire to obliterate a sovereign nation? What means are acceptable for preventing your possible aggression? >We can, in fact, ensure that they are incapable of making nuclear bombs. A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel. So you're fine killing however many millions of Iranians to prevent them from having the potential to kill a large number of people.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      I doubt the parent commenter is really all that bloodthirsty, instead they are likely imagining Iran as a country in the abstract sense, without inhabitants.
- sorokod 5y ago
  >There's definitely no chance... Shure there is, countries follow their national interest.
- unity1001 5y ago
  > Iranian program cannot be prevented forever with 100% certainty Beyond that - all it takes for Russia or China to provide Iran with nuclear weapons would be Israel or US pushing it too far. Actually, that may already be something past the point - at this point an attack against Iran will be interpreted as an attack or prelude to attack against Russia or China.
Leparamour 5y ago
How do you feel about Israeli scientists being assassinated? Fair game, too?
- leephillips 5y ago
  Depends on which ones. If you mean that guy who was reviewer #2, go at it.
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    What about Israeli citizens developing offensive cyberwarfare capabilities?

whatshisface 5y ago

There's definitely no chance of a country agreeing to follow international law or even norms when the other signatories would take "any means necessary" to achieve their policy goals WRT them. The problem with your plan, even from an amoral realpolitik perspective, is that the Iranian program cannot be prevented forever with 100% certainty. There's a possible future world where they end up with nuclear weapons after 30 years of assassinations, and that's the world where they'd be the most likely to make use of them. There are a lot of ways it could happen - maybe they build two plants and the west only gets one of them, maybe North Korea makes a donation to the cause. Maybe they set up a bunch of innocent scientists in the secret but not secret nuclear theory department and let their enemies waste time clandestinely assassinating their theory group while they manufacture the real weapon based on plans obtained elsewhere. When you're killing civilians, you're in a state of war, and although being in a state of war has had very indirect consequences for the US over the past 50 years, that's not guaranteed to go on forever.

leephillips 5y ago
We are not talking about negotiable issues like access to shipping lanes. We are talking about preventing nuclear holocaust. Iran has repeatedly expressed its desire to obliterate another sovereign nation. I believe them. This is the opposite of amoral, it elevates moral imperatives over formalities. “Any means necessary” is not confined to assassinating individuals. We can, in fact, ensure that they are incapable of making nuclear bombs. A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  >A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel. Iran has about 80M innocent civilians living there. Even if you think of the leadership as holding them hostage (not too far from the truth for many countries...), that's a lot of hostages to sacrifice.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    Most of whom would be annihilated if Iran got into a nuclear exchange with Israel or another country. And I said nothing about “sacrificing” the population, just crippling the technology. Stuxnet had, I think, one casualty, but severely set back their nuclear program. You’re making a lot of assumptions, not to mention repeatedly editing your comments. Thanks for offering your opinions, but, for these reasons, I don’t think this conversation is going to be productive.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >Iran has repeatedly expressed its desire to obliterate another sovereign nation Do you realize that stating we must use "any means necessary" to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear bomb is expressing the desire to obliterate a sovereign nation? What means are acceptable for preventing your possible aggression? >We can, in fact, ensure that they are incapable of making nuclear bombs. A country with stone-age technology is not going to be enriching nuclear fuel. So you're fine killing however many millions of Iranians to prevent them from having the potential to kill a large number of people.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I doubt the parent commenter is really all that bloodthirsty, instead they are likely imagining Iran as a country in the abstract sense, without inhabitants.
sorokod 5y ago
>There's definitely no chance... Shure there is, countries follow their national interest.
unity1001 5y ago
> Iranian program cannot be prevented forever with 100% certainty Beyond that - all it takes for Russia or China to provide Iran with nuclear weapons would be Israel or US pushing it too far. Actually, that may already be something past the point - at this point an attack against Iran will be interpreted as an attack or prelude to attack against Russia or China.

Leparamour 5y ago

How do you feel about Israeli scientists being assassinated? Fair game, too?

leephillips 5y ago
Depends on which ones. If you mean that guy who was reviewer #2, go at it.
- Leparamour 5y ago
  What about Israeli citizens developing offensive cyberwarfare capabilities?