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This Is Water (2005)
- ismaildonmez 5y agoEvery now and then I listen to the recording https://youtu.be/PhhC_N6Bm_s https://youtu.be/PhhC_N6Bm_s to remind myself that this is water.
- jstx1 5y agoThe crowd clapping and cheering approvingly at his example of how not to think is a great moment.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoAround 13:30? Was your take that they were misunderstanding him and cheering approvingly at the huge stupid lane-blocking SUVs with religious or patriotic stickers? I had the opposite take. They got him and were cheering his rant.
- bmj 5y agoI'm assuming from DFW's reaction, the crowd most definitely missed his point.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoI might be wrong since you and (presumably) jstx1 see it that way. I heard his follow on joke. I took it as a joke. It was funny because he knew they were cheering his rant, but he pretends for a moment that they were cheering that target of his rant. So (loudest members of) the audience didn't get it, but we all do? Hmm. Doesn't seem likely.
- Nition 5y agoYou've misunderstood somewhere. The audience was cheering his rant, and he chides them for it. His message was to not think like the way he was in his rant.
- GavinMcG 5y agoOr, in keeping with the content: did you consider that you might have misunderstood? Personally I took it the same way some other commenters did: the audience is plenty well educated to understand his point, but they were cheering the masterful description, and he was riffing. Guy's dead, so we'll never know, but hopefully we can learn the lesson he was offering and not be so self-righteously confident when engaging each other about something that could be interpreted two ways.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoIt's quite interesting how many nuances and interpretations a close reading provides. > I can spend time in the end-of-the-day traffic being disgusted about all the huge, stupid, lane-blocking SUV’s and Hummers and V-12 pickup trucks, burning their wasteful, selfish, 40-gallon tanks of gas, and I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper-stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles, driven by the ugliest [responding here to loud applause] — this is an example of how NOT to think, though — most disgustingly selfish vehicles, driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate and aggressive drivers. I was in masterful description - riffing camp, but I can see what jstx1, bmj, Nition see. He's angry in traffic. The audience cheers were are also angry in traffic. He gently, in a joke, says wait the point is not to be angry in traffic. Very plausible reading.
- GavinMcG 5y agoThe context is important: > Or, of course, if I’m in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting, I can spend time There was no applause at the previous example: > And who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are, and how stupid and cow-like and dead-eyed and nonhuman they seem in the checkout line, or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line. It's the "more socially conscious liberal arts" bit, being delivered at a liberal arts commencement ceremony to an audience that gets the joke.
- sva_ 5y agoThis shortened version with some video/music around it is also pretty nice: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC7xzavzEKY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC7xzavzEKY
- taylorwc 5y agoThis and Bill Watterson’s commencement speech at Kenyon[0] are both things I read a few times a year—-challenging and relatable. [0] https://web.mit.edu/jmorzins/www/C-H-speech.html https://web.mit.edu/jmorzins/www/C-H-speech.html
- tartoran 5y agoThis is great. Thanks for posting it
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- dang 5y agoPast threads with comments (not many): This is Water [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27747931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27747931 - July 2021 (1 comment) David Foster Wallace: This Is Water - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25507754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25507754 - Dec 2020 (1 comment) David Foster Wallace: This Is Water - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25405924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25405924 - Dec 2020 (2 comments) This Is Water – David Foster Wallace - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17436613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17436613 - July 2018 (3 comments) This Is Water – David Foster Wallace - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12482325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12482325 - Sept 2016 (3 comments) This is Water - David Foster Wallace's commencement speech from 2005 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731340 - May 2013 (4 comments) This Is Water - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5685071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5685071 - May 2013 (1 comment) David Foster Wallace: This is Water - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5679086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5679086 - May 2013 (2 comments) This is Water (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672961 - May 2013 (1 comment) "This is water, this is water." - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2909239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2909239 - Aug 2011 (29 comments) This is Water (David Foster Wallace on Life) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2342230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2342230 - March 2011 (1 comment)
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- Emigre_ 5y agoI liked Infinite Jest and Consider The Lobster And Other Essays. Not easy reads in my opinion, especially Infinite Jest obviously, but interesting and original books. The movie The End of the Tour (2015), although most probably inaccurate in his portrait of the man (from what I’ve read), is an enjoyable fiction that just happens to use Wallace as one of the characters. I recommend it.
- boldslogan 5y agothe editor for ij released his edited version of a book dfw left, or remnants of a manuscript called pale king. have you read it?
- Emigre_ 5y agoNo, I haven’t… Have you?…
- boldslogan 5y agoive read ij, with the footnotes and it took me so long I think I forgot some of the first part of the book while reading the later part. I enjoyed it kind of like a tv series but with so many episodes I forget the first season but kept watching. So on one hand Ive heard the hype, and it was good...but I wonder if it was shorter it could have had a bigger punch (like 1984 or something else) and while typing this I wonder if this tv show analogy ( Rick and Morty comes to mind) is a kind of good analogy? Or maybe im a philistine... I was almost going to buy the Pale king today but ill get it soon and start reading it.
- Emigre_ 5y agoI hear you, it took me a long time too to finish it too!… :D
- nemo44x 5y agoIt’s not uncommon to page back as you get about 200 pages in to reconnect things, etc. but the book is literature and a big part of enjoying it is enjoying it for its sake. The tangents and ideas and writing - it’s just a fun book to read and imagine with it. People get hung up on plot and other devices which make for great stories. And that’s great. IJ isn’t for everyone - but if you love literature there’s a good chance you’ll enjoy a long love making session to the book. It is extremely well crafted.
- davidpelayo 5y agoWaoh! I didn't know this guy. Really interesting! Thanks for posting.
- codq 5y agoOh wow, you've got quite a journey if you decide to dive into the life and work of David Foster Wallace. A troubled, but absolutely brilliant mind. Enjoy!
- awaissamdani 5y agoI came back to this like 5 times in a year. Thanks for making it 6ixth.
- firedev 5y agoCould anybody explain it to me? I read it many times but every time it seems to have a different meaning.
- Tarsul 5y agohis storytelling reads very differently when you know that he killed himself 3 years after this talk and was depressed for the last 20 years of his life.
- snet0 5y ago"Good Old Neon" reads entirely different in the context of his suicide. It's almost a different story when you put it in that space.
- makapuf 5y agoAs a non native, I had to read it first, then listen to him while reading it again to begin to understand it. Thanks to have posted this and allowed me to discover this talk, you made my evening.
- Tarsul 5y agothe speech is pretty good. Basically he advocates for thinking for yourself, compassion, less egoism. I find it very weird that they made a book out of it with 144 pages. How come 144 pages? Pretty easy, every page only has one line. But the people on amazon like it so who am I to judge.
- nuclearnice3 5y ago"What will you say? What will you do?" "Oh -- I don't know." Eliot's sorrow and exhaustion dropped away for a moment as he became enchanted by the problem. A birdy little smile played over his lips. "Go over to her shack, I guess. Sprinkle some water on the babies, say, 'Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- : "'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'" Kurt Vonnegut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Bless_You,_Mr._Rosewater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Bless_You,_Mr._Rosewater
- blakesterz 5y agoProbably not a popular opinion... I first heard him read this shortly after it came out, and at first I thought it was great, but the second time I heard it, it fell apart. This fell flat for me considering it was a commencement speech. It reads like it was written by a sad lonely man, for other sad lonely men. He was speaking to a huge auditorium full of parents and children, and he wrote something for himself. He couldn't imagine a world where there was more than his life, outside his water. The world of every parent in that room. I've always felt like he made his point in ways he never meant to.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoI really like your analysis. But rather than falling apart, for me, it reifies the truth of the entire piece. As Tarsul points out elsewhere in the thread, he was a profoundly sad man and killed himself a few years after this speech. At the end of the day, neither the old fish nor the young fish could escape the water.
- Trasmatta 5y agoWell, he was sad and lonely, and dealt with severe depression. He took his life a few years after this speech.
- isamuel 5y agoLet’s go ahead and caption this comment “On The Cusp of a Revelation (2021)”
- booleandilemma 5y agoYeah I don’t see what the hype was about this guy. He was physically abusive towards his girlfriend, was creepy with her son, and he killed himself. Seems like a loser.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoI'm not precisely sure why you are getting downvoted, but worth noting the abuse is well-documented. [1] [2] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/the-world-still-spins-around-male-genius/559925/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/th... [2] https://twitter.com/marykarrlit/status/992735594060148737 https://twitter.com/marykarrlit/status/992735594060148737
- mandliya 5y agoI listen to this speech every 2 months. I have known a colleague for years now, but he became a good friend because I was able to understand his perspective in a useless conflict. This speech is so powerful, and calls attention to true human virtues which are easily forgotten (empathy, compassion). It is good reminder of how we live our lives as center of our own universe, completely unaware!
- moistrobot 5y agoIf you like this and want it set to music, check out Akira the Don's "This is Waterwave" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYiXG2cAajs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYiXG2cAajs
- paulpauper 5y agoProbably one of the smartest people who ever lived. His breadth of knowledge was probably unsurpassed. He wrote/knew about everything, from math to philosophy to pharmacology ,sports, etc. By the end of undergrad he effectively a top-tier philosopher and then branched out to writing, in which he also excelled. Kinda like Issac Asimov in terms of knowing so much, but a completely different genre.
- revolvingocelot 5y ago>a top-tier philosopher and then branched out to writing I probably can't replicate the experience for anyone else, but I was astounded by learning the year in which Infinite Jest was released only after finishing it. The only other fiction that's led me to totally misapprehend the year of publication like that is Parable of the Sower.
- sillysaurusx 5y agoThank you for not revealing the years of either. I’m curious to replicate your experience.
- nuclearnice3 5y agoFWIW, his venture into math writing with Everything and More [1] was widely criticized. The wikipedia has links to the full text of three reviews: "laced through and through with blunders of every magnitude." "Any reader keen to gain insights into the infinite would do better to go back to Aristotle." "The presentation grows increasingly frantic and disorganized. Nothing makes sense." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_and_More_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_and_More_(book)
- bingohbangoh 5y agoReading this again, for the upteenth time, I'm struck by how much of David Foster Wallace's work had simple mores and cliches but expressed in such a high brow way so as to not feel silly. Infinite Jest, which I read at 19, felt so significant because he managed to say something very trite and cliche in such a powerful way. Quote: """ Of course the main requirement of speeches like this is that I'm supposed to talk about your liberal arts education's meaning, to try to explain why the degree you are about to receive has actual human value instead of just a material payoff. So let's talk about the single most pervasive cliché in the commencement speech genre, which is that a liberal arts education is not so much about filling you up with knowledge as it is about "teaching you how to think". If you're like me as a student, you've never liked hearing this, and you tend to feel a bit insulted by the claim that you needed anybody to teach you how to think, since the fact that you even got admitted to a college this good seems like proof that you already know how to think. But I'm going to posit to you that the liberal arts cliché turns out not to be insulting at all, because the really significant education in thinking that we're supposed to get in a place like this isn't really about the capacity to think, but rather about the choice of what to think about. If your total freedom of choice regarding what to think about seems too obvious to waste time discussing, I'd ask you to think about fish and water, and to bracket for just a few minutes your skepticism about the value of the totally obvious. """ I highly recommend the film version of "Interviews with Hideous Men" (directed by John Krasinski of all people). It captures the inner, quiet desperation of people in the 21st century.
- elcapitan 5y agoThanks for the film tip, I thought I was relatively well versed in the DFW universe, but had never heard about it.
- strulovich 5y agoFor people who read lot of DFW’s stuff, did you find The Pale King to be as good as the rest of his work, is it with reading?
- taylorwc 5y agoI have read most of his stuff, including The Pale King. It is absolutely worth reading, but also recall that it was published in an unfinished state posthumously. It is not a particularly easy read but has some extremely compelling themes.
- simonsarris 5y agoI am not really fond of this speech or way of thinking and wrote a counterpoint here: https://simonsarris.substack.com/p/stoicism-is-not-enough https://simonsarris.substack.com/p/stoicism-is-not-enough Chiefly: > I suspect this kind of stoicism — for Marcus and Wallace and some modern popularizers — is a response to perceiving the breakdown of a functioning world. Their prescription for dealing with such troubles is to develop profound internal strength, and in doing so the stoic attitude can dodge some societal-level failures by compartmentalizing toward a robust individualism. While this is good in situations where you truly can’t change anything, where it fails is more subtle. By couching success as something that happens entirely within the ego, it encourages one to downplay anything external. If a stoic attitude is applied too liberally, the insistence that success lies solely within becomes an unconscious dodge of difficult forces and responsibilities beyond one’s complete control.
- ep103 5y agoI... I think you entirely missed the point of the commencement speech. The point of his speech is NOT that the world is hard, and difficult, and in order to combat, survive and thrive in that environment you need to reshape your viewpoint so as to see the world in an easier light, or amend yourself to better accept your situation. The point of his speech is that from childhood through college, the average American life changes dramatically every few years. New experiences, new schools, new friends. But after college, most of us begin to develop routines. Many of us specialize. We do so in a way that is unfamiliar to us before that age, as it is only after college that life has the potential to stay stable for many years in a row, and thereby allow many of us to begin building routines, foundations, and patterns that can last a lifetime. Routines of habit also go hand in hand with building routines of thought. In school, high school, college, you are constantly bombarded with new ideas and experiences. But 10 years into the workforce, depending on how you chose to live your life, you may find that this happens less frequently. That you've automated some parts of your life mentally. That you've fossilized some aspects of your thinking, in order to focus on other aspects and goals of your life. And DFW is pointing out that this is both extremely common, and dangerous. > "The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship–be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles–is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive" What he's saying is that if you adopt any specific ideology as fixed, then the persistent problems you will encounter in your life will be precisely the ones your current ideology is unable to fix. (Almost tautologically, because otherwise, you would have fixed them already.) The point of the speech is not that you have to change your viewpoint in order to make yourself amenable to the outside world. The point of his speech is that you need to be willing to always look at a situation from outside your current perspective, and be willing to continue growing, learning, and upgrading your current beliefs and viewpoints in order to be able to reassess and potentially solve your problems, goals, life and ambitions. His 'fear' is that many of the students will think that their learning part of their life is complete, because they have graduated college. DFW is trying to instill in them that college did not finish their requirements to learn. College merely taught them how to learn, in the hope that they would continue learning for the rest of their lives. That is literally the opposite of stoicism. DFW is literally saying that if someone adopts a completely fixed and stoic mindset, they might as well kill themselves. Because it is only by getting over one's routines, and consciously choosing to look at one's own problems from new perspectives, and then employing their collegiately taught skills of learning that one finds new approaches and philosophies and perspectives and SOLUTIONS to their problems. And it is by doing that, that one can ultimately find a fulfilling and successful life. Failing to do that, getting permanently stuck in mental rut, will lead to missing out on so much of what makes life positive, successful and happy, that he compares such people to the walking dead. Which would be the stoic viewpoint.
- stakkur 5y agoThere are two kinds of people in the world. And only one of them likes David Foster Wallace.
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