8 ms·

No one should be installing native apps for this now that we have WebRTC.

by swiley 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
StreamBright 5y ago
>> for this What is exactly “for this”?
- jchw 5y ago
  I’d assume teleconferencing. And tbh, I’m not sure I disagree. WebRTC has some issues and certainly isn’t the greatest, but it feels like every teleconferencing solution goes through basically the same problems over and over again. I know some swear up and down that Zoom is better than any WebRTC solution and I am going to have to hard disagree, it has a larger featureset than say, Google Meet, but I don’t know anyone in my current org that isn’t disappointed in Zoom’s reliability or security issues. In my case the security issues I’ve personally heard of are less serious (mostly random people somehow getting into meetings — never witnessed that with Meet or anything else for that matter) but to be honest, I have zero trust in Zoom. If I could run it with less privileges than a browser tab I would. I’d really prefer a world where people don’t have to deeply distrust software, but still adhere to principle of least privilege where it is reasonable to do so. I feel like if I have to install software natively, it better be software with a decent track record from a trustworthy team. However we’re really at a worst of both worlds situation with Zoom. I don’t trust it at all, and it gets a ton of privileges that are only checked in the sense that there might be some scrutiny from researchers. Not saying I never had issues with the WebRTC solutions, but honestly, at worst I just found myself refreshing the tab and going on my way. Meanwhile I’ve been warned against even trying Zoom for Linux as apparently it makes the old Skype for Linux look like a solid product.
wilde 5y ago
WebRTC has had plenty of implementation issues. https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/08/exploiting-android-messengers-part-3.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/08/exploiting-an...
- supervisual 5y ago
  There's a difference between Android native bugs and forgoing protection provided by browser on desktop instead of relying on Native apps.
  - wilde 5y ago
    The browser is also a native app. https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2018/12/adventures-in-video-conferencing-part-1.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2018/12/adventures-in...
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
Define "this". The web app has less features[0] and you might be forced by your employer to use a feature that doesn't exist in the web version. [0] https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360027397692-Desktop-client-mobile-app-web-client-and-PWA-comparison https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360027397692-Deskt...
wichert 5y ago
WebRTC still requires you to implement your own signalling layer, which is where most of these problems occur. Using XMPP for signalling in combination with WebRTC is very common.
lima 5y ago
Unfortunately, Zoom deliberately cripples their web app to the point of being unusable. If your employer uses Zoom, there's no way to avoid the native app.
- wereHamster 5y ago
  lol we use Zoom for most of our meetings and I always used the web app, without any issues.
  - meibo 5y ago
    Sitting in a meeting and saying a few words is like 10% of what Zoom can do - there's webinars, breakout rooms, Q&A, polls, moderation, and a lot of other smaller features which are incomplete or unavailable on the web client.
- brundolf 5y ago
  That’s why I keep it quarantined to my work computer. If friends/family want to use it, I use it on there.
dijit 5y ago
One company has piss poor security; but there have been hundreds of native apps doing teleconferencing before, which were native. Nothing to do with native or not; and pushing everything to a web-browser makes a really complicated bit of software with weird quirks and potential hidden bugs. Yes it’s more tested, but when your code paths are literally infinite- “more eyes” isn’t going to help.
skrebbel 5y ago
To be frank, if Zoom was a web only app (or maybe web plus web-in-a-electron like eg Slack and WhatsApp) there'd be a vocal HN crowd complaining that there was no proper native app.
- koolba 5y ago
  Last I checked you didn’t have to install anything. I’m not sure about more advanced usage like screen sharing or how many timing options their are, but for generic “see me, see you” it works fine in the browser.
  - brundolf 5y ago
    It does have a web app, but they make it incredibly hard to find. I’m not surprised that some don’t even know about it
    - koolba 5y ago
      Indeed, IIRC, you need to click “download”, reject the download, and then an “Open in your browser” dialog appears.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        IME, my video always shows as either blank white, or psychedelic light show. Android app works.
    - edoceo 5y ago
      There was a setting they had, so the Bowser option is shown right away (well, after the xdg-open prompt)
  - Geezus_42 5y ago
    I can confirm that the in browser version does not allow for remote desktop. I use zoom in a support role because webex is a laggy dumpster fire.
- 5y ago
cle 5y ago
So browser sandboxing? Is that fundamentally different from native sandboxes like snap, flatpak, et al?
- watermelon0 5y ago
  Browser sandboxing is more battle tested, and probably a lot more researched, and with more fuzzing performed on it. I know that at least X11 is not sandboxed with snap/flatpak/etc., and there is no sandbox for macOS/Windows Zoom client, so using web client is infinitely more isolated.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  Browser vendors push sandboxing technology and everything else kinda follows behind by years. It's unlikely you'll find a more powerful sandboxing approach than what's in Chrome.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
All of the apps that use WebRTC seem to have worse quality and latency than Zoom. Including the semi-hidden web version of Zoom. This could just be a coincidence, but I suspect it's not. For all of its faults, Zoom calls are just much better than all of the other mainstream solutions I've tried, particularly with large groups.
fancy_pantser 5y ago
There's a YC company that tries to make starting and scaling WebRTC super easy, which is far from trivial for a variety of clients/browsers or with 5+ participants simultaneously: https://www.daily.co https://www.daily.co
shp0ngle 5y ago
Zoom is much faster, especially on older PCs, than Teams or (especially) Google Meet, because it’s native pick your poison

No one should be installing native apps for this now that we have WebRTC.

by swiley 5y ago

No one should be installing native apps for this now that we have WebRTC.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

StreamBright 5y ago

>> for this What is exactly “for this”?

jchw 5y ago
I’d assume teleconferencing. And tbh, I’m not sure I disagree. WebRTC has some issues and certainly isn’t the greatest, but it feels like every teleconferencing solution goes through basically the same problems over and over again. I know some swear up and down that Zoom is better than any WebRTC solution and I am going to have to hard disagree, it has a larger featureset than say, Google Meet, but I don’t know anyone in my current org that isn’t disappointed in Zoom’s reliability or security issues. In my case the security issues I’ve personally heard of are less serious (mostly random people somehow getting into meetings — never witnessed that with Meet or anything else for that matter) but to be honest, I have zero trust in Zoom. If I could run it with less privileges than a browser tab I would. I’d really prefer a world where people don’t have to deeply distrust software, but still adhere to principle of least privilege where it is reasonable to do so. I feel like if I have to install software natively, it better be software with a decent track record from a trustworthy team. However we’re really at a worst of both worlds situation with Zoom. I don’t trust it at all, and it gets a ton of privileges that are only checked in the sense that there might be some scrutiny from researchers. Not saying I never had issues with the WebRTC solutions, but honestly, at worst I just found myself refreshing the tab and going on my way. Meanwhile I’ve been warned against even trying Zoom for Linux as apparently it makes the old Skype for Linux look like a solid product.

wilde 5y ago

WebRTC has had plenty of implementation issues. https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/08/exploiting-android-messengers-part-3.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/08/exploiting-an...

supervisual 5y ago
There's a difference between Android native bugs and forgoing protection provided by browser on desktop instead of relying on Native apps.
- wilde 5y ago
  The browser is also a native app. https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2018/12/adventures-in-video-conferencing-part-1.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2018/12/adventures-in...

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

Define "this". The web app has less features[0] and you might be forced by your employer to use a feature that doesn't exist in the web version. [0] https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360027397692-Desktop-client-mobile-app-web-client-and-PWA-comparison https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360027397692-Deskt...

wichert 5y ago

WebRTC still requires you to implement your own signalling layer, which is where most of these problems occur. Using XMPP for signalling in combination with WebRTC is very common.

lima 5y ago

Unfortunately, Zoom deliberately cripples their web app to the point of being unusable. If your employer uses Zoom, there's no way to avoid the native app.

wereHamster 5y ago
lol we use Zoom for most of our meetings and I always used the web app, without any issues.
- meibo 5y ago
  Sitting in a meeting and saying a few words is like 10% of what Zoom can do - there's webinars, breakout rooms, Q&A, polls, moderation, and a lot of other smaller features which are incomplete or unavailable on the web client.
brundolf 5y ago
That’s why I keep it quarantined to my work computer. If friends/family want to use it, I use it on there.

dijit 5y ago

One company has piss poor security; but there have been hundreds of native apps doing teleconferencing before, which were native. Nothing to do with native or not; and pushing everything to a web-browser makes a really complicated bit of software with weird quirks and potential hidden bugs. Yes it’s more tested, but when your code paths are literally infinite- “more eyes” isn’t going to help.

skrebbel 5y ago

To be frank, if Zoom was a web only app (or maybe web plus web-in-a-electron like eg Slack and WhatsApp) there'd be a vocal HN crowd complaining that there was no proper native app.

koolba 5y ago
Last I checked you didn’t have to install anything. I’m not sure about more advanced usage like screen sharing or how many timing options their are, but for generic “see me, see you” it works fine in the browser.
- brundolf 5y ago
  It does have a web app, but they make it incredibly hard to find. I’m not surprised that some don’t even know about it
  - koolba 5y ago
    Indeed, IIRC, you need to click “download”, reject the download, and then an “Open in your browser” dialog appears.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      IME, my video always shows as either blank white, or psychedelic light show. Android app works.
  - edoceo 5y ago
    There was a setting they had, so the Bowser option is shown right away (well, after the xdg-open prompt)
- Geezus_42 5y ago
  I can confirm that the in browser version does not allow for remote desktop. I use zoom in a support role because webex is a laggy dumpster fire.
5y ago

cle 5y ago

So browser sandboxing? Is that fundamentally different from native sandboxes like snap, flatpak, et al?

watermelon0 5y ago
Browser sandboxing is more battle tested, and probably a lot more researched, and with more fuzzing performed on it. I know that at least X11 is not sandboxed with snap/flatpak/etc., and there is no sandbox for macOS/Windows Zoom client, so using web client is infinitely more isolated.
staticassertion 5y ago
Browser vendors push sandboxing technology and everything else kinda follows behind by years. It's unlikely you'll find a more powerful sandboxing approach than what's in Chrome.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

All of the apps that use WebRTC seem to have worse quality and latency than Zoom. Including the semi-hidden web version of Zoom. This could just be a coincidence, but I suspect it's not. For all of its faults, Zoom calls are just much better than all of the other mainstream solutions I've tried, particularly with large groups.

fancy_pantser 5y ago

There's a YC company that tries to make starting and scaling WebRTC super easy, which is far from trivial for a variety of clients/browsers or with 5+ participants simultaneously: https://www.daily.co https://www.daily.co

shp0ngle 5y ago

Zoom is much faster, especially on older PCs, than Teams or (especially) Google Meet, because it’s native pick your poison