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Lately there's been a lot of talk about what Emacs needs, written mostly by people who don't understand Emacs. Emacs is more of a journey than an application.

by b5n 5y ago

Lately there's been a lot of talk about what Emacs needs, written mostly by people who don't understand Emacs. Emacs is more of a journey than an application. It's similar to a blacksmith forging their own tools - Emacs is the metaphorical ingot, waiting to be transformed and molded by the user. If you're happy with what you're using then you don't need Emacs, and Emacs doesn't need to appeal to that crowd. Emacs isn't a VSCode competitor, it's something entirely different, and it's waiting for those who desire transcendence - shedding the limits imposed by other tools. You can install and use Emacs as quickly as any other application, but to truly reap its benefit you must go deeper. I don't see the need to cater to people who clearly want something else, those tools already exist, please leave Emacs to those of us who appreciate it for what it is. I disagree with all the reccomendations made in this article, all these changes are easy to implement, and the user is encouraged to do so - one of the main selling points of Emacs. That doesn't mean there is not room for improvement, Emacs is still constantly improving. Additionally, I've encountered many instances where a colleague or friend introduces me to some new feature in their preferred application, the majority of the time it's a feature that's been available in Emacs for years if not decades. I'd prefer we continue to focus on the needs of Emacs users rather than the wants of non-emacs users. Emacs will still be waiting for them when they're ready.

greggman3 5y ago
Seems like you completely missed the point of the article. The article called out that none of the changes make emacs any less powerful nor do any of the changes remove any functionality. Users can still do everything they could always do with emacs. They can still take this "journey" you mention. All the changes do is let them get started quicker and jump in with at least some familiarity. Old emacs users such as yourself can keep on using your non-standard keys and old terminology. For you, nothing would change. For new users, they'd be productive quicker and still able to take advantage of all the things that keep fans of emacs using to emacs.
- b5n 5y ago
  I can't help but feel that you missed the point of my comment. New users should be encouraged to make those changes themselves if they feel the need to. If that's not something they're interested in, why use Emacs? Anyone can publish a config and distribute it. For instance, the author of this article could create a 'new user friendly' config and distribute it just like doom, spacemacs, etc. If it's popular enough it will see a lot of use, but my guess is it would most likely wallow. Making those changes default would require existing users to update their configs, not necessarily a big deal, but for what? So a new user can download Emacs, play with it for a minute, and still conclude that Emacs is a dusty relic because they don't understand the philosophy? The whole idea of chasing new Emacs users is kind of silly, Emacs is more popular than it has ever been, and if a new user doesn't come to Emacs for what Emacs offers they were never going to stay. Out of the box solutions already exist, Emacs is in a different category, and need not compete in that arena - especially at the expense of current users. Appreciate the reply, cheers.
  - SeanLuke 5y ago
    > I can't help but feel that you missed the point of my comment. New users should be encouraged to make those changes themselves if they feel the need to. If that's not something they're interested in, why use Emacs? This whole response is the reason Emacs is rapidly approaching EOL. You're putting the onus on new users to modify Emacs into a more beginner-friendly, standards-friendly editor? Their response would be: thanks, but I'll go try out Eclipse instead. It's not that new users desperately want to use Emacs. It's that emacs is losing userbase at a tremendous clip because its UI and design is so ancient and crufty and because the community leaders think that's Just Fine for Them. If the emacs community wants new blood, it's they who have to implement changes to attract it.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      > You're putting the onus on new users to modify Emacs into a more beginner-friendly, standards-friendly editor? Their response would be: thanks, but I'll go try out Eclipse instead. Emacs has grown quite a bit since Eclipse's first release. So yes, definitely let them try out Eclipse or VS Code instead. It won't hurt Emacs. See my other comment[1]. I've said it in the past, but there's a strange obsession HN folks have with comparing Emacs to VSCode or IDEs. SW development is merely one use case for Emacs. If you look at the last emacsconf, the majority of talks had nothing to do with SW development. Quite a few of the presenters, if not most, are not professional SW developers. Some of Emacs's most popular packages were created by non-programmers. Emacs will continue to grow even as fewer and fewer SW developers use Emacs for professional development. > It's that emacs is losing userbase at a tremendous clip Is there any evidence they are losing users? Why do people keep thinking this? As an Emacs user, I see a lot more Emacs packages being published than in the past. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28342477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28342477

by b5n 5y ago

greggman3 5y ago

Seems like you completely missed the point of the article. The article called out that none of the changes make emacs any less powerful nor do any of the changes remove any functionality. Users can still do everything they could always do with emacs. They can still take this "journey" you mention. All the changes do is let them get started quicker and jump in with at least some familiarity. Old emacs users such as yourself can keep on using your non-standard keys and old terminology. For you, nothing would change. For new users, they'd be productive quicker and still able to take advantage of all the things that keep fans of emacs using to emacs.

b5n 5y ago
I can't help but feel that you missed the point of my comment. New users should be encouraged to make those changes themselves if they feel the need to. If that's not something they're interested in, why use Emacs? Anyone can publish a config and distribute it. For instance, the author of this article could create a 'new user friendly' config and distribute it just like doom, spacemacs, etc. If it's popular enough it will see a lot of use, but my guess is it would most likely wallow. Making those changes default would require existing users to update their configs, not necessarily a big deal, but for what? So a new user can download Emacs, play with it for a minute, and still conclude that Emacs is a dusty relic because they don't understand the philosophy? The whole idea of chasing new Emacs users is kind of silly, Emacs is more popular than it has ever been, and if a new user doesn't come to Emacs for what Emacs offers they were never going to stay. Out of the box solutions already exist, Emacs is in a different category, and need not compete in that arena - especially at the expense of current users. Appreciate the reply, cheers.
- SeanLuke 5y ago
  > I can't help but feel that you missed the point of my comment. New users should be encouraged to make those changes themselves if they feel the need to. If that's not something they're interested in, why use Emacs? This whole response is the reason Emacs is rapidly approaching EOL. You're putting the onus on new users to modify Emacs into a more beginner-friendly, standards-friendly editor? Their response would be: thanks, but I'll go try out Eclipse instead. It's not that new users desperately want to use Emacs. It's that emacs is losing userbase at a tremendous clip because its UI and design is so ancient and crufty and because the community leaders think that's Just Fine for Them. If the emacs community wants new blood, it's they who have to implement changes to attract it.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > You're putting the onus on new users to modify Emacs into a more beginner-friendly, standards-friendly editor? Their response would be: thanks, but I'll go try out Eclipse instead. Emacs has grown quite a bit since Eclipse's first release. So yes, definitely let them try out Eclipse or VS Code instead. It won't hurt Emacs. See my other comment[1]. I've said it in the past, but there's a strange obsession HN folks have with comparing Emacs to VSCode or IDEs. SW development is merely one use case for Emacs. If you look at the last emacsconf, the majority of talks had nothing to do with SW development. Quite a few of the presenters, if not most, are not professional SW developers. Some of Emacs's most popular packages were created by non-programmers. Emacs will continue to grow even as fewer and fewer SW developers use Emacs for professional development. > It's that emacs is losing userbase at a tremendous clip Is there any evidence they are losing users? Why do people keep thinking this? As an Emacs user, I see a lot more Emacs packages being published than in the past. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28342477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28342477