5 ms·

It's strange to see people lying/exaggerating about their racial diversity on census forms when under a century ago people lied about their racial purity on the

It's strange to see people lying/exaggerating about their racial diversity on census forms when under a century ago people lied about their racial purity on these forms to avoid being targeted by one-drop laws. It seems like a risky decision to make, as if those laws ever return your entire family tree could be punished for that box you checked.

klipt 5y ago
The difference is that now, the discrimination against non white people is mostly unwritten (biases that have measurable effects, but are never outright stated as policies). Conversely all the discrimination against white people is formal (companies say they want to hire more non white people for diversity, government programs for minority owned businesses, etc). So from a game theory perspective, the best possible position is one where you are informally perceived as white (so you don't face any of the unwritten biases) but are formally listed as a marginalized group (so you benefit from formal policies intended to help those groups). Not surprising people who can, would use a DNA test as an excuse to put themselves in that group.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >So from a game theory perspective... The part you're forgetting is that is incredibly simple to prove you have racial diversity, you can just provide your DNA test results. But if you're formally listed as diverse, it is impossible to then prove you aren't.
  - klipt 5y ago
    So you think not taking a test will protect you if a Nazi government arises that wants to kill everyone who listed themselves as diverse? What would stop said Nazi government from forcing you to take the test anyway?
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      >What would stop said Nazi government from forcing you to take the test anyway? The fact that testing everybody is difficult both politically and logistically.
      - klipt 5y ago
        That stops liberal democracies. It wouldn't stop Nazis.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        I'm discussing the return of one-drop laws, something that happened in a liberal democracy.
        decremental 5y ago
        The Nazis don't exist anymore. It's so called liberal democracies you've got to be worried about.
    - decremental 5y ago
      Governments around the world are currently working on setting the precedent. Surely if you're a good person you'll take the test so we can strive towards true equity. Those anti-equityers are an existential threat to our society, and more importantly, to marginalized peoples. Sounds absurd but everything that sounds absurd today is only 5 years down the line. Think of what the unthinkable was 5 years ago or 10 years ago. Don't be surprised when you start to hear about equity ID.
jl6 5y ago
I think it’s more likely that increased population mixing will make everyone mixed race and we will have to find something else to talk about.
- uncoder0 5y ago
  I can't see that happening. Race is a valuable tool in capital's toolbox of divisiveness.
  - speedgoose 5y ago
    > While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)
    - chillwaves 5y ago
      That doesn't really matter for the purposes of the comment you are replying to.
    - ReptileMan 5y ago
      Since Wikipedia has been run by ultra liberals lately take everything you read there with a grain of salt when it is related to the culture war.
    - klipt 5y ago
      If race has no biological meaning, why isn't Rachel Dolezal (who was raised with multiple adopted black brothers) allowed to identify as black? Isn't it seen as lying purely because of her ... genetics?
- tdfx 5y ago
  The only thing holding this back is the economic dominance of white people. There's nothing inherently favorable about being white except that, in most cases of human history, white groups have been the dominant economic actors throughout the world. I could easily see this being shifted to another race, i.e. East Asian, should the economic balance of the world substantially change.
lukesky3 5y ago
If and when you have 15 yo children applying to college, you'll understand this well. If you are Asian, you really understand it -- Ignoring justifiable attempts to increase diversity on campus, Asians find that being Asian American immediately docs points off as compared to White students. Of course I want to find the bit of white in me via DNA tests, so my child can get into a great school with, say, 2200 SATs (standard) vs the 2300 they would require as Asians.
- JPKab 5y ago
  My wife's parents came to the United States from the Philippines. It's a very odd twist that our mixed-race children will benefit on their college admissions forms by checking the box for white. Completely unfair. I would vastly prefer to walk into any college campus in the United States and be vastly outnumbered by Asians who earned the privilege to be there than to see them be more representative of the population as a whole by changing the standards for different groups.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  The expected result from what you're describing is people claiming that they aren't Asian, but the article discusses more people claiming that they are multiracial.
- dukeofdoom 5y ago
  Claiming or being Jewish would be the most advantageous to get into a top school. Way overrepresented ethnic group even accounting for higher IQ distribution.
  - throwawaytruth1 5y ago
    What's even more disturbing is the fact that a lot of the justification of discrimination against asians, requiring higher test scores etc. is from none other than Ashkenazi Jews. Imagine the outcry if they were limited to be closer to their population percentage. If people actually cared about racism and being logically consistent, their first concern should be this massive overrepresentation of Jews. They don't.

klipt 5y ago

The difference is that now, the discrimination against non white people is mostly unwritten (biases that have measurable effects, but are never outright stated as policies). Conversely all the discrimination against white people is formal (companies say they want to hire more non white people for diversity, government programs for minority owned businesses, etc). So from a game theory perspective, the best possible position is one where you are informally perceived as white (so you don't face any of the unwritten biases) but are formally listed as a marginalized group (so you benefit from formal policies intended to help those groups). Not surprising people who can, would use a DNA test as an excuse to put themselves in that group.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
>So from a game theory perspective... The part you're forgetting is that is incredibly simple to prove you have racial diversity, you can just provide your DNA test results. But if you're formally listed as diverse, it is impossible to then prove you aren't.
- klipt 5y ago
  So you think not taking a test will protect you if a Nazi government arises that wants to kill everyone who listed themselves as diverse? What would stop said Nazi government from forcing you to take the test anyway?
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    >What would stop said Nazi government from forcing you to take the test anyway? The fact that testing everybody is difficult both politically and logistically.
    - klipt 5y ago
      That stops liberal democracies. It wouldn't stop Nazis.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        I'm discussing the return of one-drop laws, something that happened in a liberal democracy.
      - decremental 5y ago
        The Nazis don't exist anymore. It's so called liberal democracies you've got to be worried about.
  - decremental 5y ago
    Governments around the world are currently working on setting the precedent. Surely if you're a good person you'll take the test so we can strive towards true equity. Those anti-equityers are an existential threat to our society, and more importantly, to marginalized peoples. Sounds absurd but everything that sounds absurd today is only 5 years down the line. Think of what the unthinkable was 5 years ago or 10 years ago. Don't be surprised when you start to hear about equity ID.

jl6 5y ago

I think it’s more likely that increased population mixing will make everyone mixed race and we will have to find something else to talk about.

uncoder0 5y ago
I can't see that happening. Race is a valuable tool in capital's toolbox of divisiveness.
- speedgoose 5y ago
  > While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)
  - chillwaves 5y ago
    That doesn't really matter for the purposes of the comment you are replying to.
  - ReptileMan 5y ago
    Since Wikipedia has been run by ultra liberals lately take everything you read there with a grain of salt when it is related to the culture war.
  - klipt 5y ago
    If race has no biological meaning, why isn't Rachel Dolezal (who was raised with multiple adopted black brothers) allowed to identify as black? Isn't it seen as lying purely because of her ... genetics?
tdfx 5y ago
The only thing holding this back is the economic dominance of white people. There's nothing inherently favorable about being white except that, in most cases of human history, white groups have been the dominant economic actors throughout the world. I could easily see this being shifted to another race, i.e. East Asian, should the economic balance of the world substantially change.

lukesky3 5y ago

If and when you have 15 yo children applying to college, you'll understand this well. If you are Asian, you really understand it -- Ignoring justifiable attempts to increase diversity on campus, Asians find that being Asian American immediately docs points off as compared to White students. Of course I want to find the bit of white in me via DNA tests, so my child can get into a great school with, say, 2200 SATs (standard) vs the 2300 they would require as Asians.

JPKab 5y ago
My wife's parents came to the United States from the Philippines. It's a very odd twist that our mixed-race children will benefit on their college admissions forms by checking the box for white. Completely unfair. I would vastly prefer to walk into any college campus in the United States and be vastly outnumbered by Asians who earned the privilege to be there than to see them be more representative of the population as a whole by changing the standards for different groups.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
The expected result from what you're describing is people claiming that they aren't Asian, but the article discusses more people claiming that they are multiracial.
dukeofdoom 5y ago
Claiming or being Jewish would be the most advantageous to get into a top school. Way overrepresented ethnic group even accounting for higher IQ distribution.
- throwawaytruth1 5y ago
  What's even more disturbing is the fact that a lot of the justification of discrimination against asians, requiring higher test scores etc. is from none other than Ashkenazi Jews. Imagine the outcry if they were limited to be closer to their population percentage. If people actually cared about racism and being logically consistent, their first concern should be this massive overrepresentation of Jews. They don't.