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Stop using the cloud? Or maybe just stop worshiping it like it’s the answer to everything. I once had a tech lead insist we take everything out of the cloud, a

Stop using the cloud? Or maybe just stop worshiping it like it’s the answer to everything. I once had a tech lead insist we take everything out of the cloud, and do it on our own bare metal. People thought he was insane. But he did the math again and again: faster and cheaper. Turned out really, really well. Even in personal computing … do we really need the cloud for everything?

noir_lord 5y ago
It's not even a case of stopping using the cloud entirely so much as be aware of all the trade-offs, calculate them as much as possible and make an educated choice which it sounds like your lead did. The problem is that for many dev's who've been inculcated their entire careers with the mantra "cloud first" getting them to a point where they can accurately make an educated choice takes time. Or to put it another way, the pendulum is currently swung way over towards "cloud everything". I'm older than I suspect the average age is on here so I've lived in the "pre-cloud" and "cloud" world and can see the benefits (and drawbacks) of both. The irony is that much of the work done to make things work in the cloud is directly applicable to running similar workloads on your own hardware if you want to (docker, things like minio as a random example) hell even Kubernetes.
- atemerev 5y ago
  I don't know, in my opinion, "cloud first" is becoming less popular during the last two years. The pendulum is swinging back.
- slowmovintarget 5y ago
  If someone has been "inculcated their entire career" to be cloud-first, then their career is only six years old. Cloud-first hasn't been a viable solution for much longer than that. For many endeavors these days, cloud-first will be the correct default choice. Get something up, min-max it later. For most devs, for most workloads, the cost of running a data center isn't worth it. I've been building software since before the internet was a thing. I'm fairly certain this isn't a pendulum that will swing back the other way. It is a rising waterline.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    > then their career is only six years old. So they definitely have the Senior Developer title and might even be the lead somewhere.
    - noir_lord 5y ago
      Pretty much. I was a lead (or the equivalent since titles change) after 5 years way back in the day and I really shouldn't have been. The thing is the job titles are pretty much meaningless as I've never worked two places that had similar criteria for what they considered junior, regular, senior, lead and in some places seniors are leads (if you only have 1 senior on a team of 8 they are a lead, if you have 6 seniors on a team of 8 and no lead then are they really senior and to who). Other places promote on time served, so you are junior 2 years, regular dev for 2-3 years, senior after that. It's one of the reasons when hiring I completely ignore their previous titles and look at what they actually did. I've seen juniors who where at least equivalent to seniors in other places and "Seniors" who I wouldn't have hired as a junior. My favourite title in my entire career (and it was my actual title) was "Code Monkey"[1], it got entered as a joke in the HR system and everything after that sort of followed on even my business cards (remember those?) said it (since company ordered them and did a mail merge from the HR system). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Wy7gRGgeA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Wy7gRGgeA
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        > My favourite title in my entire career (and it was my actual title) was "Code Monkey"[1], it got entered as a joke in the HR system and everything after that sort of followed on even my business cards (remember those?) said it (since company ordered them and did a mail merge from the HR system). One company I worked at let people use whatever title they wanted, as long as it was in good taste, and it didn't imply a level of authority you didn't have. I never actually took advantage of that, but I kind of wish I had, just for the sake of having some hilarious business cards.
        5y ago
rektide 5y ago
> Stop using the cloud? Is this not exactly what I just described as the problem? Governments ruining the ability to hold data safely in online locations? "Stop being an online services company" does not seem like a solution. Being able to provide online services & networks seems to power a vast amount of modernity. A lot of downvotes on my post. But holy shit I have no idea how anyone can see this as anything else. The discussion seems ridiculously off target. The government is making the data-center untrustable: how is this at all debateable? How is this any better than the Chinese authoritarianism that plagues their intranet? In neither world are people free to think or communicate. This is obvious.
- iamstupidsimple 5y ago
  I agree with you, but I do believe there's a large cohort of people that either believe that data centers were never trustable, or they believe strongly against any kind of data collection so strongly that there is a hope everything will get pushed back out to user's devices.
  - rootsudo 5y ago
    Nothings stopping you from doing it voluntary.

noir_lord 5y ago

It's not even a case of stopping using the cloud entirely so much as be aware of all the trade-offs, calculate them as much as possible and make an educated choice which it sounds like your lead did. The problem is that for many dev's who've been inculcated their entire careers with the mantra "cloud first" getting them to a point where they can accurately make an educated choice takes time. Or to put it another way, the pendulum is currently swung way over towards "cloud everything". I'm older than I suspect the average age is on here so I've lived in the "pre-cloud" and "cloud" world and can see the benefits (and drawbacks) of both. The irony is that much of the work done to make things work in the cloud is directly applicable to running similar workloads on your own hardware if you want to (docker, things like minio as a random example) hell even Kubernetes.

atemerev 5y ago
I don't know, in my opinion, "cloud first" is becoming less popular during the last two years. The pendulum is swinging back.
slowmovintarget 5y ago
If someone has been "inculcated their entire career" to be cloud-first, then their career is only six years old. Cloud-first hasn't been a viable solution for much longer than that. For many endeavors these days, cloud-first will be the correct default choice. Get something up, min-max it later. For most devs, for most workloads, the cost of running a data center isn't worth it. I've been building software since before the internet was a thing. I'm fairly certain this isn't a pendulum that will swing back the other way. It is a rising waterline.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  > then their career is only six years old. So they definitely have the Senior Developer title and might even be the lead somewhere.
  - noir_lord 5y ago
    Pretty much. I was a lead (or the equivalent since titles change) after 5 years way back in the day and I really shouldn't have been. The thing is the job titles are pretty much meaningless as I've never worked two places that had similar criteria for what they considered junior, regular, senior, lead and in some places seniors are leads (if you only have 1 senior on a team of 8 they are a lead, if you have 6 seniors on a team of 8 and no lead then are they really senior and to who). Other places promote on time served, so you are junior 2 years, regular dev for 2-3 years, senior after that. It's one of the reasons when hiring I completely ignore their previous titles and look at what they actually did. I've seen juniors who where at least equivalent to seniors in other places and "Seniors" who I wouldn't have hired as a junior. My favourite title in my entire career (and it was my actual title) was "Code Monkey"[1], it got entered as a joke in the HR system and everything after that sort of followed on even my business cards (remember those?) said it (since company ordered them and did a mail merge from the HR system). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Wy7gRGgeA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Wy7gRGgeA
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      > My favourite title in my entire career (and it was my actual title) was "Code Monkey"[1], it got entered as a joke in the HR system and everything after that sort of followed on even my business cards (remember those?) said it (since company ordered them and did a mail merge from the HR system). One company I worked at let people use whatever title they wanted, as long as it was in good taste, and it didn't imply a level of authority you didn't have. I never actually took advantage of that, but I kind of wish I had, just for the sake of having some hilarious business cards.
      - 5y ago

rektide 5y ago

> Stop using the cloud? Is this not exactly what I just described as the problem? Governments ruining the ability to hold data safely in online locations? "Stop being an online services company" does not seem like a solution. Being able to provide online services & networks seems to power a vast amount of modernity. A lot of downvotes on my post. But holy shit I have no idea how anyone can see this as anything else. The discussion seems ridiculously off target. The government is making the data-center untrustable: how is this at all debateable? How is this any better than the Chinese authoritarianism that plagues their intranet? In neither world are people free to think or communicate. This is obvious.

iamstupidsimple 5y ago
I agree with you, but I do believe there's a large cohort of people that either believe that data centers were never trustable, or they believe strongly against any kind of data collection so strongly that there is a hope everything will get pushed back out to user's devices.
- rootsudo 5y ago
  Nothings stopping you from doing it voluntary.