4 ms·

You want a cop to physically detain a homeless person which will just result in sending him through a pointlessly cruel and expensive criminal justice system wh

You want a cop to physically detain a homeless person which will just result in sending him through a pointlessly cruel and expensive criminal justice system where he'll pop-out the other side with nothing but unpayable debts that'll drive him through the same cycle again - all because he urinated on a car of someone who won't even realize it happened?

thatguy0900 5y ago
How much of a bubble do you have to be in to think someone peeing on cars is a non issue
- swearwolf 5y ago
  Unfortunately that viewpoint is fairly common among contemporary West Coast liberals. A shocking amount of anti-social behavior is tolerated for this reason.
  - nicoffeine 5y ago
    (This got long, I'm not directing this at you or trying to needle you. I hope this will help you or someone else understand what some of the homeless are facing) I think we see someone peeing on a car as less of an anti-social behavior than puritanical approaches to solving anti-social behavior that are more about punishment than rehabilitation. We are more upset that society wants to pay 70-100k a year to imprison people who likely have neurochemistry or behavioral problems, than to spend a fraction of that on solving the root problems instead of treating symptoms. I've been in psych wards and rehabs. I would say close to three quarters of people in both institutions were capable of living a somewhat normal life, if they could get meaningful and stable assistance in dealing with their issues. The rest at least deserved a comfortable, safe place to live the best they could under full supervision. If you do any reading about state mental institutions in the US, you will understand they receive the exact opposite. After my last psychotic episode I was pretty sure I would never be able to work again, but I still wanted to be independent if possible, even if that meant living in public housing and scraping by. I had already maxed out my SS benefits because I was productive up until that point, despite having undiagnosed mental illness and addiction problems. Of course I didn't have any savings and was relying on family. At this point I had over 100k in hospital bills, thankfully almost completely paid by health insurance before I lost my job. That included multiple hospital visits, trips to psych wards, and visits to rehab. My family had saved paperwork for all of it, and I had two different psychiatrists who agreed I may never be able to work again. I was told point blank by every single person I talked to, from the non-profits (who were totally worthless), to the disability lawyers I called, to the disability processing agents that it would be at least two years before I had a chance at receiving a dime. So I stayed with family for many months, they paid for my mental health care, and eventually I got on the right meds and I can now work again. My economic privilege is probably the only reason I am not on the streets or dead. As a society, our expectation is that someone with a mental illness is going to take on that bureaucracy while they are in the most difficult period of their illness in order to get better. And if they display anti-social behavior, what do we do? We imprison them. Some of my behavior during my psychotic episode was violent. I am lucky I was not beat or shot, by a stranger or by the police. The whole point of my rambling is that I hope we can consider the history of the person that is displaying anti-social behaviors. Some of the smartest, kindest, and most ingenious hackers of every stripe I have ever met were in rehab and in psych wards, but only after they had been stabilized by meds or sobriety. Before they returned, they were different, sometimes scary people. There is so much potential being wasted, and so much low hanging fruit to help them rehabilitate and give back to society. Even from a purely economical perspective, I think it makes sense to overhaul our safety net so it catches people as early as it can. It serves individual rights, makes efficient use of our collective wealth, and I think it's the right thing to do.
    - swearwolf 5y ago
      Thanks for sharing your perspective, I found it to be enlightening and perspective widening. One of my close family members is very much like yourself, having been hospitalized many times with periods of independence in between. He was able to get on disability early in life thanks to some foresight by our parents, so luckily he’s never had to go through that awful waiting process, but otherwise a lot of your story is his story too. I am currently and have been for a while the person who supports him and tries to navigate with him through the impossible sea of bureaucracy to meet his most basic needs, and I share your frustration. Most of the institutions we do have in this country are absolutely byzantine to take advantage of and it’s only gotten worse thanks to COVID and the massive staff and doctor shortages at every healthcare facility that accepts patients on Medicare. It’s beyond maddening. Regarding my original comment, for the most part I am not personally angry with those who are exhibiting the antisocial behavior, with the exception of the violent ones or those who make a habit of stealing from others to support a drug habit. Even the latter I can drum up some sympathy for, although it’s limited. That being said, I am angry that nothing is being done to separate the people who can’t or won’t behave decently in public from those who do. That isn’t fair to those who are willing and able to follow the basic principles and tenants of society. Children deserve to be able to play on a playground without having to worry about stepping on a used needle; something that they can’t currently do in some neighborhoods of the city I live in because the city government is too paralyzed with the fear of our activist community and lawsuits that they won’t evict the homeless camps that have set up shop there. That’s not okay. Neither is the open air chop shop that took over a local dog park. I could go on and on and on with examples like this, but I think my point is pretty clear. I agree with you about the need to overhaul our safety net. To me it’s an imperative along the same order of importance as responding meaningfully to climate change. I found out recently that a shocking number of foster children become homeless after they turn 18. As I’m sure you know, that’s just one group that isn’t properly cared for under our current system. Sweeping and meaningful change is badly needed, and it’s needed right now. And yet, outside the West Coast, this is barely a topic of discussion. It’s not on the agenda for either of the national political parties in any meaningful way. For that to happen, people need to get angry. But when people do get angry - say about a person peeing on their car - they often get shut down by well meaning, empathetic people. I see that as a problem. I feel that it’s entirely appropriate to be angry about the situation we find ourselves in, and to allow that anger to build, and to let the people in our government who are currently abdicating their duties to feel it, so they feel motivated to change.
  - Jackpillar 5y ago
    I'm a socialist. It is literally a liberal position to increase the police budgets which has the downstream effect of criminalizing homelessness and transferring them to prisons. Instead of detaining a homeless person for pissing on a car whose owner knows nonetheless - how about we start at the source and build more affordable housing along with investing into mental health services and transitional organizations. Arresting the homeless person literally rehabilitates no one, is a waste of your tax $$, and is just a symbolically punitive act so you can feel that some sort of "justice" was served for an act that literally harmed nobody.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I don't think arresting people solves problems. Just makes them shittier people when they get out a week later.
  - qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
    What use is the law anyway...
  - ianhawes 5y ago
    I'm fairly certain it is permitted in California, but police offers do have the power to write a citation that acts as a summons for the suspect to appear in court. No arrest, likely no jail time, just ~$20 in court costs plus whatever fine the judge imposes.
    - Jackpillar 5y ago
      Ahh yes the common scenario of a mentally unstable homeless person showing up for a court appearance and having the ability to pay $20 in court costs and fines.
gjs278 5y ago
yes
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

thatguy0900 5y ago

How much of a bubble do you have to be in to think someone peeing on cars is a non issue

swearwolf 5y ago
Unfortunately that viewpoint is fairly common among contemporary West Coast liberals. A shocking amount of anti-social behavior is tolerated for this reason.
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  (This got long, I'm not directing this at you or trying to needle you. I hope this will help you or someone else understand what some of the homeless are facing) I think we see someone peeing on a car as less of an anti-social behavior than puritanical approaches to solving anti-social behavior that are more about punishment than rehabilitation. We are more upset that society wants to pay 70-100k a year to imprison people who likely have neurochemistry or behavioral problems, than to spend a fraction of that on solving the root problems instead of treating symptoms. I've been in psych wards and rehabs. I would say close to three quarters of people in both institutions were capable of living a somewhat normal life, if they could get meaningful and stable assistance in dealing with their issues. The rest at least deserved a comfortable, safe place to live the best they could under full supervision. If you do any reading about state mental institutions in the US, you will understand they receive the exact opposite. After my last psychotic episode I was pretty sure I would never be able to work again, but I still wanted to be independent if possible, even if that meant living in public housing and scraping by. I had already maxed out my SS benefits because I was productive up until that point, despite having undiagnosed mental illness and addiction problems. Of course I didn't have any savings and was relying on family. At this point I had over 100k in hospital bills, thankfully almost completely paid by health insurance before I lost my job. That included multiple hospital visits, trips to psych wards, and visits to rehab. My family had saved paperwork for all of it, and I had two different psychiatrists who agreed I may never be able to work again. I was told point blank by every single person I talked to, from the non-profits (who were totally worthless), to the disability lawyers I called, to the disability processing agents that it would be at least two years before I had a chance at receiving a dime. So I stayed with family for many months, they paid for my mental health care, and eventually I got on the right meds and I can now work again. My economic privilege is probably the only reason I am not on the streets or dead. As a society, our expectation is that someone with a mental illness is going to take on that bureaucracy while they are in the most difficult period of their illness in order to get better. And if they display anti-social behavior, what do we do? We imprison them. Some of my behavior during my psychotic episode was violent. I am lucky I was not beat or shot, by a stranger or by the police. The whole point of my rambling is that I hope we can consider the history of the person that is displaying anti-social behaviors. Some of the smartest, kindest, and most ingenious hackers of every stripe I have ever met were in rehab and in psych wards, but only after they had been stabilized by meds or sobriety. Before they returned, they were different, sometimes scary people. There is so much potential being wasted, and so much low hanging fruit to help them rehabilitate and give back to society. Even from a purely economical perspective, I think it makes sense to overhaul our safety net so it catches people as early as it can. It serves individual rights, makes efficient use of our collective wealth, and I think it's the right thing to do.
  - swearwolf 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing your perspective, I found it to be enlightening and perspective widening. One of my close family members is very much like yourself, having been hospitalized many times with periods of independence in between. He was able to get on disability early in life thanks to some foresight by our parents, so luckily he’s never had to go through that awful waiting process, but otherwise a lot of your story is his story too. I am currently and have been for a while the person who supports him and tries to navigate with him through the impossible sea of bureaucracy to meet his most basic needs, and I share your frustration. Most of the institutions we do have in this country are absolutely byzantine to take advantage of and it’s only gotten worse thanks to COVID and the massive staff and doctor shortages at every healthcare facility that accepts patients on Medicare. It’s beyond maddening. Regarding my original comment, for the most part I am not personally angry with those who are exhibiting the antisocial behavior, with the exception of the violent ones or those who make a habit of stealing from others to support a drug habit. Even the latter I can drum up some sympathy for, although it’s limited. That being said, I am angry that nothing is being done to separate the people who can’t or won’t behave decently in public from those who do. That isn’t fair to those who are willing and able to follow the basic principles and tenants of society. Children deserve to be able to play on a playground without having to worry about stepping on a used needle; something that they can’t currently do in some neighborhoods of the city I live in because the city government is too paralyzed with the fear of our activist community and lawsuits that they won’t evict the homeless camps that have set up shop there. That’s not okay. Neither is the open air chop shop that took over a local dog park. I could go on and on and on with examples like this, but I think my point is pretty clear. I agree with you about the need to overhaul our safety net. To me it’s an imperative along the same order of importance as responding meaningfully to climate change. I found out recently that a shocking number of foster children become homeless after they turn 18. As I’m sure you know, that’s just one group that isn’t properly cared for under our current system. Sweeping and meaningful change is badly needed, and it’s needed right now. And yet, outside the West Coast, this is barely a topic of discussion. It’s not on the agenda for either of the national political parties in any meaningful way. For that to happen, people need to get angry. But when people do get angry - say about a person peeing on their car - they often get shut down by well meaning, empathetic people. I see that as a problem. I feel that it’s entirely appropriate to be angry about the situation we find ourselves in, and to allow that anger to build, and to let the people in our government who are currently abdicating their duties to feel it, so they feel motivated to change.
- Jackpillar 5y ago
  I'm a socialist. It is literally a liberal position to increase the police budgets which has the downstream effect of criminalizing homelessness and transferring them to prisons. Instead of detaining a homeless person for pissing on a car whose owner knows nonetheless - how about we start at the source and build more affordable housing along with investing into mental health services and transitional organizations. Arresting the homeless person literally rehabilitates no one, is a waste of your tax $$, and is just a symbolically punitive act so you can feel that some sort of "justice" was served for an act that literally harmed nobody.
colinmhayes 5y ago
I don't think arresting people solves problems. Just makes them shittier people when they get out a week later.
- qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
  What use is the law anyway...
- ianhawes 5y ago
  I'm fairly certain it is permitted in California, but police offers do have the power to write a citation that acts as a summons for the suspect to appear in court. No arrest, likely no jail time, just ~$20 in court costs plus whatever fine the judge imposes.
  - Jackpillar 5y ago
    Ahh yes the common scenario of a mentally unstable homeless person showing up for a court appearance and having the ability to pay $20 in court costs and fines.

gjs278 5y ago

yes

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]