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At work we use Puppet and I have to say that although the DSL is much more expressive and nicer to use than YAML, Puppet's tooling sucks in comparison. There is

At work we use Puppet and I have to say that although the DSL is much more expressive and nicer to use than YAML, Puppet's tooling sucks in comparison. There isn't really any way to test your Puppet code that I know of, you just have to apply it and check if it all looks good. Puppet doesn't have a set of good practices established either. Different companies use completely different repository structures, compiler settings, linter settings. Modules for managing common software like Docker are low quality and riddled with issues. Ansible and Puppet claim to be declarative but it's a lie. Configuration management really needs a rethink. I know Nix exists but that has a huge barrier to entry and companies don't want to use something that isn't battle tested. In my view, the ideal config management tool would be fast, testable, and provably idempotent. It would also be as far away as possible from the Python/Ruby swamp that Ansible and Puppet are stuck in.

inshadows 5y ago
Puppet is declarative, isn't it? You declare states and relationships, and it computes plan of action. Ansible is not declarative at all though, and it's not even funny how almost every fan says it is. It's just a sequence of actions.
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  Sadly, no. Puppet masquerades as being declarative just like Ansible does. It's very easy to get into a situation where your Puppet class is just a fancy shell script which works the first time and then fails because a file doesn't exist or something. There is nothing to lint for this or to protect against this.
  - LIV2 5y ago
    At a previous job we used beaker tests as part of our pipeline to test puppet modules & environments before we would merge to prod. One of the things this tests is that the module applies and doesn't try to change anything / error out on subsequent runs. The documentation sucks though imo, every different guide you find will show a completely different way of doing it
  - inshadows 5y ago
    I know Puppet is a mess. What you say is that you spill lot of exec's into a class? You can avoid that, can't you? If you just declare "resources" and connect them via relationships, then it seems pretty "declarative" to me, i.e. there's no sequence of actions in Puppet DSL and when you run puppet it only does what's necessary. While I find it truly "declarative", I still think Puppet and its ecosystem just suck, for lot of other reasons. I don't think Ansible even tries to hide the fact that it's just imperative sequence of actions. I wonder where the people saying opposite are coming from. It's just retarded imperative language.
    - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
      There's so many cases where a hacky Exec or five becomes necessary. For example, I am not aware of any Puppet module that does disk partitioning + formatting. Our solution was to write a class with a few Execs to do that. But there's so many edge cases where this can go wrong if it's not truly idempotent. An accidental disk wipe across our fleet would be a disaster, so what did we do? We basically wrapped the class in a big if guard that checks if the disk is already partitioned. That's not idempotent at all of course or declarative - it's just a script. I can think of another horrifying example. We extract archives on to the machine to a specific target directory, and all files in that directory should have a specific owner and group. So we have a File resource that states the target directory exists which is ordered before the Archive resource. But we need to recursively chown after extraction too because tarballs preserve the original owner and group on extraction. We can't add a File resource with the same path that states the owner and group after extraction because duplicate resources aren't allowed. The only solution in this case is a hacky Exec. And that isn't declarative either because you'd have to check the owner/group of all files recursively to know whether it's in the right state or not. We just have this Exec run if the Archive resource refreshes. What if something else adds a file to this directory with the wrong owner/group? It wouldn't be corrected. Again, not declarative. And god help you if a machine in the fleet runs out of disk space and resources only partially apply. The state will be completely fucked up and you'll have to manually nuke directories to correct it. Because Puppet only pretends to be declarative. /rant :(
zatarc 5y ago
https://puppet.com/blog/unit-testing-rspec-puppet-for-beginners/ https://puppet.com/blog/unit-testing-rspec-puppet-for-beginn...

inshadows 5y ago

Puppet is declarative, isn't it? You declare states and relationships, and it computes plan of action. Ansible is not declarative at all though, and it's not even funny how almost every fan says it is. It's just a sequence of actions.

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
Sadly, no. Puppet masquerades as being declarative just like Ansible does. It's very easy to get into a situation where your Puppet class is just a fancy shell script which works the first time and then fails because a file doesn't exist or something. There is nothing to lint for this or to protect against this.
- LIV2 5y ago
  At a previous job we used beaker tests as part of our pipeline to test puppet modules & environments before we would merge to prod. One of the things this tests is that the module applies and doesn't try to change anything / error out on subsequent runs. The documentation sucks though imo, every different guide you find will show a completely different way of doing it
- inshadows 5y ago
  I know Puppet is a mess. What you say is that you spill lot of exec's into a class? You can avoid that, can't you? If you just declare "resources" and connect them via relationships, then it seems pretty "declarative" to me, i.e. there's no sequence of actions in Puppet DSL and when you run puppet it only does what's necessary. While I find it truly "declarative", I still think Puppet and its ecosystem just suck, for lot of other reasons. I don't think Ansible even tries to hide the fact that it's just imperative sequence of actions. I wonder where the people saying opposite are coming from. It's just retarded imperative language.
  - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
    There's so many cases where a hacky Exec or five becomes necessary. For example, I am not aware of any Puppet module that does disk partitioning + formatting. Our solution was to write a class with a few Execs to do that. But there's so many edge cases where this can go wrong if it's not truly idempotent. An accidental disk wipe across our fleet would be a disaster, so what did we do? We basically wrapped the class in a big if guard that checks if the disk is already partitioned. That's not idempotent at all of course or declarative - it's just a script. I can think of another horrifying example. We extract archives on to the machine to a specific target directory, and all files in that directory should have a specific owner and group. So we have a File resource that states the target directory exists which is ordered before the Archive resource. But we need to recursively chown after extraction too because tarballs preserve the original owner and group on extraction. We can't add a File resource with the same path that states the owner and group after extraction because duplicate resources aren't allowed. The only solution in this case is a hacky Exec. And that isn't declarative either because you'd have to check the owner/group of all files recursively to know whether it's in the right state or not. We just have this Exec run if the Archive resource refreshes. What if something else adds a file to this directory with the wrong owner/group? It wouldn't be corrected. Again, not declarative. And god help you if a machine in the fleet runs out of disk space and resources only partially apply. The state will be completely fucked up and you'll have to manually nuke directories to correct it. Because Puppet only pretends to be declarative. /rant :(

zatarc 5y ago

https://puppet.com/blog/unit-testing-rspec-puppet-for-beginners/ https://puppet.com/blog/unit-testing-rspec-puppet-for-beginn...