8 ms·

They didn't bother cleaning it up for that long because the stench down-river from Brussels went into a flemish area and when they did finally succumb to pressu

by cynusx 5y ago

They didn't bother cleaning it up for that long because the stench down-river from Brussels went into a flemish area and when they did finally succumb to pressure from the flemish side to cleanup the stench of this river they mismanaged the effort and the project was late and had a minor corruption scandal. Calling these prejudices "old" is a stretch, it's only in 2016 they saw that fishes could survive in the river.

yvdriess 5y ago
And there was a dispute a few years ago with one of the companies that cleans the waste water that flows back into the river. They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again.
- Firerouge 5y ago
  > They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again. Sounds like they shouldn't be paid for any of the work that they undid by this
  - lupire 5y ago
    You expect to work forever after getting paid once?
    - ISL 5y ago
      Depends on the contract. Cemeteries do exactly that.
      - codetrotter 5y ago
        Differs from country to country I think. And even in some of those countries where grave leases are indefinite, they are eventually going to have to face the fact that as the population of earth grows there will be less and less available space for new graves, and at some point they will likely have to change the rules to allow for grave reuse even in a lot of places that currently have graves last “forever”. For example: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/cemetery-space-is-filling-up-is-grave-reuse-the-solution/100205348 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/cemetery-space-is-fil... Norway: > § 8. Protection time for grave and burial site. > A grave can be used for a new burial when at least 20 years have passed since the last burial and the articles of association for the burial site do not stipulate a longer protection period. > Urns can still be put in a coffin grave even if the protection period according to the first paragraph has not expired. > When a burial site is closed, it must be protected for at least 40 years after the last burial. From https://lovdata.no/lov/1996-06-07-32/§8 https://lovdata.no/lov/1996-06-07-32/§8 and translated using Google Translate with additional manual correction of one word that Google Translate misinterpreted.
        hulitu 5y ago
        In a eastern european country the grave is leased for 7 years. After this period if you don't extend the lease, it will be leased to somebody else. You can burry anybody there but i think that there is a period of time before you can burry the next one.
    - Firerouge 5y ago
      I expect protecting the environment to be the modus operandi. Lack of funding to do so or simply to save money isn't an excuse to relinquish their liability for damages.
      - austhrow743 5y ago
        So if you found yourself in the position where if you weren't cleaning up other people's mess then the environment would be damaged, and you weren't being paid, you would keep doing it? If so, why aren't you putting yourself in to that position right now? And assuming you do start, at what point does it become specifically your obligation such that you think you should get sued if you stop doing it?
        Firerouge 5y ago
        It became their obligation when they signed a contract taking responsibility of cleaning the river. If they wanted or needed to relinquish this responsibility they should of utilized the court system, arbitration, or sold off through bankruptcy the obligation.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  If I was in charge of this project would seriously consider as a goal to clean the waters enough to allow the survival and massive reintroduction of Painter's mussel in the city. Small native species strongly linked with the history of the country. Its direct link with the Flemish painters school, and with Brussels old kitchen would have a strong touristic appeal. Would have also a educational value creating a sense of proud among citizens, and a big environmental value as umbrella species for introduction of nature in the city and other endangered species of native mussels. All that they need is to assure to keep a minimum constant quality in the water and suddenly you have an army of small long-lived water plants generating crystalline water for free as result. A start could be to culture it in temporary flat cages that could be moved to other places in winter or if needed. Could be seen as a live water analysis system that will trigger a fast alarm in the case of toxic waste being dumped to the streams. You could put 'live filter cages' with a lot of painter mussels and maybe a few number of rarer species here and there among them and place it as necessary. Seems feasible.
chrisseaton 5y ago
Are you saying Brussels didn't care because the problem went to a Flemish area? Almost unbelievable to hear about prejudice from a place like Brussels.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Brussels is as much flemish as it is wallonian.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    Officially perhaps but nobody in Flanders cares about Brussels.
    - cynusx 5y ago
      Belgium is pretty provincial, but there is plenty of improvements in governing that the Brussels area can enact themselves... A simple one would be to merge the 11 communities and not have a different police force govern each side of a main street. Another one would be to have an agreement on how to manage a tunnel that crossed multiple communities. Brussels is _very_ Belgian. An utterly divided place but not necessarily undemocratic.
- vinceve 5y ago
  Welcome to Belgium! There’s a multitude of examples. :)
- arp242 5y ago
  Usually problems like this are fixed because the people who vote for you complain. But Belgium, in spite of its small size, has a hypercomplex democratic system which is also fairly split between a "Flemish part" and "Walloon part" who will essentially battle each other. Another example of the kind of political culture in Belgium: a big reason Belgium has a very high national debt is because in the interest of fairness both sides got treated equally in all things: "waffle-iron politics". What this meant in practice is that of side A got a new bridge somewhere because it was needed, side B also got a new bridge, whether one was really needed or not. This kind of waste occurs everywhere to some degree, but Belgium really perfected it to some kind of (expensive) performance art. None of this is not a problem unique to Belgium, and occurs in international relations as well, or in the US between states at times. Politicians in Belgium however are too busy fighting on which language to use in Brussels and similar Very Important Issues™ so everything moves at glacial speeds :-/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle-iron_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle-iron_politics
Angostura 5y ago
2016 was when large shoals of fish were identified, which rather implies fish could ‘survive’ in the river well before that

by cynusx 5y ago

yvdriess 5y ago

And there was a dispute a few years ago with one of the companies that cleans the waste water that flows back into the river. They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again.

Firerouge 5y ago
> They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again. Sounds like they shouldn't be paid for any of the work that they undid by this
- lupire 5y ago
  You expect to work forever after getting paid once?
  - ISL 5y ago
    Depends on the contract. Cemeteries do exactly that.
    - codetrotter 5y ago
      Differs from country to country I think. And even in some of those countries where grave leases are indefinite, they are eventually going to have to face the fact that as the population of earth grows there will be less and less available space for new graves, and at some point they will likely have to change the rules to allow for grave reuse even in a lot of places that currently have graves last “forever”. For example: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/cemetery-space-is-filling-up-is-grave-reuse-the-solution/100205348 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/cemetery-space-is-fil... Norway: > § 8. Protection time for grave and burial site. > A grave can be used for a new burial when at least 20 years have passed since the last burial and the articles of association for the burial site do not stipulate a longer protection period. > Urns can still be put in a coffin grave even if the protection period according to the first paragraph has not expired. > When a burial site is closed, it must be protected for at least 40 years after the last burial. From https://lovdata.no/lov/1996-06-07-32/§8 https://lovdata.no/lov/1996-06-07-32/§8 and translated using Google Translate with additional manual correction of one word that Google Translate misinterpreted.
      - hulitu 5y ago
        In a eastern european country the grave is leased for 7 years. After this period if you don't extend the lease, it will be leased to somebody else. You can burry anybody there but i think that there is a period of time before you can burry the next one.
  - Firerouge 5y ago
    I expect protecting the environment to be the modus operandi. Lack of funding to do so or simply to save money isn't an excuse to relinquish their liability for damages.
    - austhrow743 5y ago
      So if you found yourself in the position where if you weren't cleaning up other people's mess then the environment would be damaged, and you weren't being paid, you would keep doing it? If so, why aren't you putting yourself in to that position right now? And assuming you do start, at what point does it become specifically your obligation such that you think you should get sued if you stop doing it?
      - Firerouge 5y ago
        It became their obligation when they signed a contract taking responsibility of cleaning the river. If they wanted or needed to relinquish this responsibility they should of utilized the court system, arbitration, or sold off through bankruptcy the obligation.
pvaldes 5y ago
If I was in charge of this project would seriously consider as a goal to clean the waters enough to allow the survival and massive reintroduction of Painter's mussel in the city. Small native species strongly linked with the history of the country. Its direct link with the Flemish painters school, and with Brussels old kitchen would have a strong touristic appeal. Would have also a educational value creating a sense of proud among citizens, and a big environmental value as umbrella species for introduction of nature in the city and other endangered species of native mussels. All that they need is to assure to keep a minimum constant quality in the water and suddenly you have an army of small long-lived water plants generating crystalline water for free as result. A start could be to culture it in temporary flat cages that could be moved to other places in winter or if needed. Could be seen as a live water analysis system that will trigger a fast alarm in the case of toxic waste being dumped to the streams. You could put 'live filter cages' with a lot of painter mussels and maybe a few number of rarer species here and there among them and place it as necessary. Seems feasible.

chrisseaton 5y ago

Are you saying Brussels didn't care because the problem went to a Flemish area? Almost unbelievable to hear about prejudice from a place like Brussels.

ekianjo 5y ago
Brussels is as much flemish as it is wallonian.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Officially perhaps but nobody in Flanders cares about Brussels.
  - cynusx 5y ago
    Belgium is pretty provincial, but there is plenty of improvements in governing that the Brussels area can enact themselves... A simple one would be to merge the 11 communities and not have a different police force govern each side of a main street. Another one would be to have an agreement on how to manage a tunnel that crossed multiple communities. Brussels is _very_ Belgian. An utterly divided place but not necessarily undemocratic.
vinceve 5y ago
Welcome to Belgium! There’s a multitude of examples. :)
arp242 5y ago
Usually problems like this are fixed because the people who vote for you complain. But Belgium, in spite of its small size, has a hypercomplex democratic system which is also fairly split between a "Flemish part" and "Walloon part" who will essentially battle each other. Another example of the kind of political culture in Belgium: a big reason Belgium has a very high national debt is because in the interest of fairness both sides got treated equally in all things: "waffle-iron politics". What this meant in practice is that of side A got a new bridge somewhere because it was needed, side B also got a new bridge, whether one was really needed or not. This kind of waste occurs everywhere to some degree, but Belgium really perfected it to some kind of (expensive) performance art. None of this is not a problem unique to Belgium, and occurs in international relations as well, or in the US between states at times. Politicians in Belgium however are too busy fighting on which language to use in Brussels and similar Very Important Issues™ so everything moves at glacial speeds :-/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle-iron_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle-iron_politics

Angostura 5y ago

2016 was when large shoals of fish were identified, which rather implies fish could ‘survive’ in the river well before that