6 ms·

40M People Rely on the Colorado River. It’s Drying Up Fast

55 points by YossarianFrPrez 5y ago

pope_meat 5y ago
Don't worry, a future technology will solve the problem, so don't even think about changing the status quo. /s
- cryptonector 5y ago
  Ah, and what is your proposal for changing the status quo?
blastonico 5y ago
No, it's not! Next...
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Um, evidence? Argument? A bare "no it's not" is really uninformative...
aaroninsf 5y ago
Climate migration is already here, it's just unevenly distributed. More pointedly: the capacity of our society to graciously absorb climate refugees of every sort is very limited. NIMBYism is a very poor predicate for accepting large numbers of displaced and relatively poor migrants. C.f. attitudes to Dust Bowl farmers for one precedent. A friend pointed me to Chico (CA) as an interesting test case. The rapid shift from gracious "Christian" charity to increasingly right-wing hostility, in the face of large intake of people displaced by wildfires (or fear thereof), is a canary. It is a good time (now) to contemplate how this is going to amplify Fox-fueled xenophobia, tribalism, dehumanization of political opponents, and increasingly open organized domestic terror and violence in de facto Brown Shirts. The Water Knife is a mediocre novel, but a relevant sketch of how bad things might in theory get, wrt water in the American west should aridification accellerate. As it may well. It's not too early to begin organizing a rational response. We prepare for earthquakes; this one is all but certain.
- dleslie 5y ago
  Is this an outcome of climate change, or a result of a century of policies that dammed tributaries and diverted water to agriculture?
  - partsKnown 5y ago
    Obviously both. Up untill about 2000 the region was unusually wet, so really just a regression to the mean plus people being people.
- gotoeleven 5y ago
  "dehumanization of political opponents"
- hncurious 5y ago
  Is this GPT-3? I'm legit curious, because the post exhibits a bizarre lack of self awareness.
dleslie 5y ago
Much of that water is diverted to grow alfalfa, most of which is used to feed cattle, so that we can eat copious amounts of beef.
- zikduruqe 5y ago
  It's also used to grow alfalfa in the middle of a desert region where alfalfa shouldn't grow to begin with. And the alfalfa is exported internationally. We are essentially exporting water out of the US.
  - distribot 5y ago
    It's crazy to me that in Norway they treat the oil reserves they found in the 60s as a good that is owned by the nation collectively, but we can't even treat water that way. Something that, if mismanaged badly enough, could kill us all in a week.
    - landemva 5y ago
      "could kill us all in a week." This seems a bit alarmist and detached from reality.
- YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
  Yeah, that's mentioned in the article. But in a way it's worse: > A majority of the water used by farms — and thus much of the river — goes to growing nonessential crops like alfalfa and other grasses that feed cattle for meat production. Much of those grasses are also exported to feed animals in the Middle East and Asia.
notamy 5y ago
Without paywall: https://archive.is/Mmggu https://archive.is/Mmggu
mikestew 5y ago
Since about 70 percent of water delivered from the Colorado River goes to growing crops Okay, so much for my suggestion of making illegal Las Vegas golf courses and lush Phoenix lawns. But at what point is California told to quit growing alfalfa for export, and to quit with the flooded rice paddies[0]? It's a serious question: does CA just keep growing such things until the tap literally runs dry, or are restrictions put into place before it gets that bad? What's the end game? Because it seems obvious that the situation isn't going to get better. [0] https://localwiki.org/davis/Rice_Paddies https://localwiki.org/davis/Rice_Paddies
- 01100011 5y ago
  If we can use Mississippi river water to grow rice and get the countries which depend on our agricultural exports to pay for it we all win. Sure, many of the crops grown in the west are ill suited to our climate. That said, there is a bigger solution to the problem which produces a better outcome for everyone.
- papito 5y ago
  "But there is nothing we can do, we are going to hurt businesses and job creators". Okay, then. Let's see what happens when all businesses leave, especially tech, when California is going to resemble frontier living again.
- rectang 5y ago
  I'm content to play chicken with the farm conglomerates and their bought-and-paid-for legislators. Go ahead, try and turn off the taps in a residential area because you want to keep growing water-intensive crops. The result will be one of two things: either the farm industry will back down and adjust, or the corruption of the legislature through lobbying will be exposed in spectacular fashion.
  - cudgy 5y ago
    I believe residential water restrictions are already happening, except only in poor rural areas where residents are less empowered to fight back. https://calmatters.org/environment/2021/05/drought-rural-latino-communities/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2021/05/drought-rural-lat...
YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
Octavia Butler's novel The Parable of the Sower is a vividly stark portrayal of what California might be like with massive water shortages. But as the article points out, there are multiple ways to address the problem.
- i_haz_rabies 5y ago
  I find myself thinking about this novel more and more.
- dunefox 5y ago
  I think Dune by Frank Herbert might become relevant.
01100011 5y ago
It's time for a national water grid. The climate is changing and we need to be able to rapidly adapt. We can't afford to let sections of our country turn into a dustbowl while others flood. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4785 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4785 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/963122-national-smart-water-grid https://www.osti.gov/biblio/963122-national-smart-water-grid Yes, there are wasteful water practices that need to be addressed as well. Yes, there are ecological impacts that need to be accounted for. We need to think big. Our generation doesn't seem to have that sort of vision anymore. We need to prepare for a changing climate and a larger population. A water grid provides our nation with food security and helps mitigate a major effect of global warming.
- toomim 5y ago
  I agree this should be looked into, but one issue is that moving water uses energy, since water naturally flows downhill, and pushing it to where it doesn't naturally flow goes against entropy. In California, we already spend 4.2% of the state's power on pumping water. This percent will increase if the water has to run uphill and/or cross mountain ranges. http://ww2.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent-californias-great-water-power-wake-up-call/ http://ww2.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent-calif...
  - noir_lord 5y ago
    Reservoirs and pump using renewable power would offset that somewhat. Particularly you site the pumps near the renewable and they wouldn't necessarily need to be "on grid".
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      The energy required to pump water UP to the elevations of much of the southwest is astronomical. Huge parts of it are at 5000-7000', so even if you manage to avoid actual mountains, you still have a huge lift from either the coast or the Missouri/Missippii rivers. I have no doubt that there would be ways to move some water in such a manner, but not much.
nine_zeros 5y ago
What is the current state of desalinization? Is it cheap enough yet?
- pgrote 5y ago
  I have thought about this for the last year and tried to learn as much as I can. Yes, it is expensive. Does it matter at this point? Most experts don't seem to think there will be enough precipitation over the next decade to refill existing reservoirs let alone replenish the almost wiped out aquifers. This isn't a case of 1 or 2 rainy seasons making up for what is lost. If the US wants to continue growing into inhospitable areas and growing crops in areas where water is unavailable, serious work needs to start on desalination efforts. It will be expensive. There will be an environmental impact. It will take years to build as the US no longer can do public works quickly. Desalination is the only long term solution for the US west if you do not want to limit land use.
- noir_lord 5y ago
  Israel gets 80% of it's water from desalination, it works out about $0.65 per cubic meter (tonne) so it's more expensive then literally falling out the sky but certainly affordable for a first world country...maybe even the US.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    Most of Israel is within a relatively short distance, both horizontally and vertically, of the Mediterranean Sea. No comparable situation exists for most of the US southwest. It seems like a very smart idea for coastal regions of CA and perhaps even parts of OR too.
thedudeabides5 5y ago
It doesn't make sense that LA is drinking Las Vegas milkshake. Vegas should take back it's water and make SoCal figure out the whole desalinization thing with NorCal. If you leave them no other choice, people will innovate pretty fast.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
One thing TFA doesn't quite make clear enough (IMO) is that agriculture in the US southwest has been largely the result of a fever dream held by presidents and the Bureau of Reclamation after the 1905-1930 era was among the wettest in the last thousand or more years. This is why the estimates for flow in the Colorado were so optimistic, and it's why the idea got established that dams and irrigation schemes could transform the southwest. This view was bolstered by another brief blip of large precipitation levels in the early 1940s, just as the Bureau's work was reaching peak expansion. Had the precipitation levels of the 1905-1930 period actually been the norm, then perhaps the dreams of "water + sun = a green eden" might have been viable. But they were not, and we're now facing a huge set of difficult choices, which the article lays out very well.
smitty1e 5y ago
Some of the best engineers on the planet over there on the west coast. Body of water immediately west of them. WHAT IF they were to build large scale desalination projects capable of providing irrigation-grade water? Just a thought.
slowhand09 5y ago
How about covering fields and lawns with plastic (I know its petroleum) sheeting part of the time. Greenhouse-like. Reducing evaporative losses while letting sunlight penetrate could reduce water needs significantly. If its reflective, it might reduce the heat load as well.

pope_meat 5y ago

Don't worry, a future technology will solve the problem, so don't even think about changing the status quo. /s

cryptonector 5y ago
Ah, and what is your proposal for changing the status quo?

blastonico 5y ago

No, it's not! Next...

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Um, evidence? Argument? A bare "no it's not" is really uninformative...

aaroninsf 5y ago

Climate migration is already here, it's just unevenly distributed. More pointedly: the capacity of our society to graciously absorb climate refugees of every sort is very limited. NIMBYism is a very poor predicate for accepting large numbers of displaced and relatively poor migrants. C.f. attitudes to Dust Bowl farmers for one precedent. A friend pointed me to Chico (CA) as an interesting test case. The rapid shift from gracious "Christian" charity to increasingly right-wing hostility, in the face of large intake of people displaced by wildfires (or fear thereof), is a canary. It is a good time (now) to contemplate how this is going to amplify Fox-fueled xenophobia, tribalism, dehumanization of political opponents, and increasingly open organized domestic terror and violence in de facto Brown Shirts. The Water Knife is a mediocre novel, but a relevant sketch of how bad things might in theory get, wrt water in the American west should aridification accellerate. As it may well. It's not too early to begin organizing a rational response. We prepare for earthquakes; this one is all but certain.

dleslie 5y ago
Is this an outcome of climate change, or a result of a century of policies that dammed tributaries and diverted water to agriculture?
- partsKnown 5y ago
  Obviously both. Up untill about 2000 the region was unusually wet, so really just a regression to the mean plus people being people.
gotoeleven 5y ago
"dehumanization of political opponents"
hncurious 5y ago
Is this GPT-3? I'm legit curious, because the post exhibits a bizarre lack of self awareness.

dleslie 5y ago

Much of that water is diverted to grow alfalfa, most of which is used to feed cattle, so that we can eat copious amounts of beef.

zikduruqe 5y ago
It's also used to grow alfalfa in the middle of a desert region where alfalfa shouldn't grow to begin with. And the alfalfa is exported internationally. We are essentially exporting water out of the US.
- distribot 5y ago
  It's crazy to me that in Norway they treat the oil reserves they found in the 60s as a good that is owned by the nation collectively, but we can't even treat water that way. Something that, if mismanaged badly enough, could kill us all in a week.
  - landemva 5y ago
    "could kill us all in a week." This seems a bit alarmist and detached from reality.
YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
Yeah, that's mentioned in the article. But in a way it's worse: > A majority of the water used by farms — and thus much of the river — goes to growing nonessential crops like alfalfa and other grasses that feed cattle for meat production. Much of those grasses are also exported to feed animals in the Middle East and Asia.

notamy 5y ago

Without paywall: https://archive.is/Mmggu https://archive.is/Mmggu

mikestew 5y ago

Since about 70 percent of water delivered from the Colorado River goes to growing crops Okay, so much for my suggestion of making illegal Las Vegas golf courses and lush Phoenix lawns. But at what point is California told to quit growing alfalfa for export, and to quit with the flooded rice paddies[0]? It's a serious question: does CA just keep growing such things until the tap literally runs dry, or are restrictions put into place before it gets that bad? What's the end game? Because it seems obvious that the situation isn't going to get better. [0] https://localwiki.org/davis/Rice_Paddies https://localwiki.org/davis/Rice_Paddies

01100011 5y ago
If we can use Mississippi river water to grow rice and get the countries which depend on our agricultural exports to pay for it we all win. Sure, many of the crops grown in the west are ill suited to our climate. That said, there is a bigger solution to the problem which produces a better outcome for everyone.
papito 5y ago
"But there is nothing we can do, we are going to hurt businesses and job creators". Okay, then. Let's see what happens when all businesses leave, especially tech, when California is going to resemble frontier living again.
rectang 5y ago
I'm content to play chicken with the farm conglomerates and their bought-and-paid-for legislators. Go ahead, try and turn off the taps in a residential area because you want to keep growing water-intensive crops. The result will be one of two things: either the farm industry will back down and adjust, or the corruption of the legislature through lobbying will be exposed in spectacular fashion.
- cudgy 5y ago
  I believe residential water restrictions are already happening, except only in poor rural areas where residents are less empowered to fight back. https://calmatters.org/environment/2021/05/drought-rural-latino-communities/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2021/05/drought-rural-lat...

YossarianFrPrez 5y ago

Octavia Butler's novel The Parable of the Sower is a vividly stark portrayal of what California might be like with massive water shortages. But as the article points out, there are multiple ways to address the problem.

i_haz_rabies 5y ago
I find myself thinking about this novel more and more.
dunefox 5y ago
I think Dune by Frank Herbert might become relevant.

01100011 5y ago

It's time for a national water grid. The climate is changing and we need to be able to rapidly adapt. We can't afford to let sections of our country turn into a dustbowl while others flood. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4785 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4785 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/963122-national-smart-water-grid https://www.osti.gov/biblio/963122-national-smart-water-grid Yes, there are wasteful water practices that need to be addressed as well. Yes, there are ecological impacts that need to be accounted for. We need to think big. Our generation doesn't seem to have that sort of vision anymore. We need to prepare for a changing climate and a larger population. A water grid provides our nation with food security and helps mitigate a major effect of global warming.

toomim 5y ago
I agree this should be looked into, but one issue is that moving water uses energy, since water naturally flows downhill, and pushing it to where it doesn't naturally flow goes against entropy. In California, we already spend 4.2% of the state's power on pumping water. This percent will increase if the water has to run uphill and/or cross mountain ranges. http://ww2.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent-californias-great-water-power-wake-up-call/ http://ww2.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent-calif...
- noir_lord 5y ago
  Reservoirs and pump using renewable power would offset that somewhat. Particularly you site the pumps near the renewable and they wouldn't necessarily need to be "on grid".
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    The energy required to pump water UP to the elevations of much of the southwest is astronomical. Huge parts of it are at 5000-7000', so even if you manage to avoid actual mountains, you still have a huge lift from either the coast or the Missouri/Missippii rivers. I have no doubt that there would be ways to move some water in such a manner, but not much.

nine_zeros 5y ago

What is the current state of desalinization? Is it cheap enough yet?

pgrote 5y ago
I have thought about this for the last year and tried to learn as much as I can. Yes, it is expensive. Does it matter at this point? Most experts don't seem to think there will be enough precipitation over the next decade to refill existing reservoirs let alone replenish the almost wiped out aquifers. This isn't a case of 1 or 2 rainy seasons making up for what is lost. If the US wants to continue growing into inhospitable areas and growing crops in areas where water is unavailable, serious work needs to start on desalination efforts. It will be expensive. There will be an environmental impact. It will take years to build as the US no longer can do public works quickly. Desalination is the only long term solution for the US west if you do not want to limit land use.
noir_lord 5y ago
Israel gets 80% of it's water from desalination, it works out about $0.65 per cubic meter (tonne) so it's more expensive then literally falling out the sky but certainly affordable for a first world country...maybe even the US.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Most of Israel is within a relatively short distance, both horizontally and vertically, of the Mediterranean Sea. No comparable situation exists for most of the US southwest. It seems like a very smart idea for coastal regions of CA and perhaps even parts of OR too.

thedudeabides5 5y ago

It doesn't make sense that LA is drinking Las Vegas milkshake. Vegas should take back it's water and make SoCal figure out the whole desalinization thing with NorCal. If you leave them no other choice, people will innovate pretty fast.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

One thing TFA doesn't quite make clear enough (IMO) is that agriculture in the US southwest has been largely the result of a fever dream held by presidents and the Bureau of Reclamation after the 1905-1930 era was among the wettest in the last thousand or more years. This is why the estimates for flow in the Colorado were so optimistic, and it's why the idea got established that dams and irrigation schemes could transform the southwest. This view was bolstered by another brief blip of large precipitation levels in the early 1940s, just as the Bureau's work was reaching peak expansion. Had the precipitation levels of the 1905-1930 period actually been the norm, then perhaps the dreams of "water + sun = a green eden" might have been viable. But they were not, and we're now facing a huge set of difficult choices, which the article lays out very well.

smitty1e 5y ago

Some of the best engineers on the planet over there on the west coast. Body of water immediately west of them. WHAT IF they were to build large scale desalination projects capable of providing irrigation-grade water? Just a thought.

slowhand09 5y ago

How about covering fields and lawns with plastic (I know its petroleum) sheeting part of the time. Greenhouse-like. Reducing evaporative losses while letting sunlight penetrate could reduce water needs significantly. If its reflective, it might reduce the heat load as well.