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CICO is probably valid but it's easy to misinterpret. For example, in the presence of insulin, fat and muscle cells take in calories, regardless of the energy

by feifan 5y ago

CICO is probably valid but it's easy to misinterpret. For example, in the presence of insulin, fat and muscle cells take in calories, regardless of the energy state of the rest of the body, resulting in hunger and probably more calories-in. While insulin is elevated, the calories stored wIthin fat cells is inaccessible to the rest of the body … would those calories be considered "in" or "out" according to CICO?

maerF0x0 5y ago
> fat and muscle cells take in calories, They can only do so acutely until the blood sugar drops. It will not matter in the long run if there is a calorie deficit. I like to summarize it like 24 hour calorie balance is far more important than short term acute effects.
- feifan 5y ago
  I think that's right, but it's worth noting that "until the blood sugar drops" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. That varies a lot by person. E.g. I wear a CGM, as does a friend. We can eat the same thing, and my friend's CGM reading drops back to his baseline in less than an hour while mine stays elevated for several hours. I eat low-carb foods and intermittently fast to compensate, but if I ate a "mainstream heatlhy" diet (3 meals a day, grain bowls, etc), my blood sugar would be moderately elevated for most of the time.
yupper32 5y ago
You're the one making it easy to misinterpret by making it massively more complicated than it needs to be. Copy pasting from a previous post of mine: How to lose weight, by me, someone who has lost 30 pounds and kept it off: Step 1: Count every calorie you consume. If you don't know the exact amount of a dish, do your best. Apps like MyFitnessPal make this easier. Step 2: Limit that amount to 1500 calories per day. Step 3: Weigh yourself everyday first thing in the morning, and only look at 7 day averages at least. Daily fluctuations don't matter. Step 4: After 2 weeks, see how much you've lost (if any). If you've lost more than 1% of your body weight per week, raise that 1500 number. If you've lost less than 1% per week, lower that 1500 number. Repeat until satisfied! How can you make this easier? 1. Eat things that are filling with fewer calories. Think vegetables and protein. Stay away from things that aren't filling and have a lot of calories. Think candy bars. Water helps too. 2. Walk/run. This will burn calories efficiently and if you attach a fit bit to it, you can incorporate the calories burned into your 1500 number above. Weight lifting doesn't burn many calories, though it's nice for your overall health of course. You're stuck on how fat cells are stored or insulin levels? How is that at all approachable.
- feifan 5y ago
  Oh I know, I've done basically the same thing and dropped/kept off ~20 pounds. My point is that physiologically it's hard, and by reducing it to just-a-number or just-willpower, it's ignoring very real aspects of life for many people (myself included when I did that). In technical terms, CICO is a very leaky abstraction.
  - yupper32 5y ago
    > In technical terms, CICO is a very leaky abstraction. I'd call everything else an abstraction. Intermittent fasting and Keto all conform to CICO as an abstraction. Which is fine and you're right. Calorie counting is the most direct diet but is not for everyone.

by feifan 5y ago

maerF0x0 5y ago

> fat and muscle cells take in calories, They can only do so acutely until the blood sugar drops. It will not matter in the long run if there is a calorie deficit. I like to summarize it like 24 hour calorie balance is far more important than short term acute effects.

feifan 5y ago
I think that's right, but it's worth noting that "until the blood sugar drops" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. That varies a lot by person. E.g. I wear a CGM, as does a friend. We can eat the same thing, and my friend's CGM reading drops back to his baseline in less than an hour while mine stays elevated for several hours. I eat low-carb foods and intermittently fast to compensate, but if I ate a "mainstream heatlhy" diet (3 meals a day, grain bowls, etc), my blood sugar would be moderately elevated for most of the time.

yupper32 5y ago

You're the one making it easy to misinterpret by making it massively more complicated than it needs to be. Copy pasting from a previous post of mine: How to lose weight, by me, someone who has lost 30 pounds and kept it off: Step 1: Count every calorie you consume. If you don't know the exact amount of a dish, do your best. Apps like MyFitnessPal make this easier. Step 2: Limit that amount to 1500 calories per day. Step 3: Weigh yourself everyday first thing in the morning, and only look at 7 day averages at least. Daily fluctuations don't matter. Step 4: After 2 weeks, see how much you've lost (if any). If you've lost more than 1% of your body weight per week, raise that 1500 number. If you've lost less than 1% per week, lower that 1500 number. Repeat until satisfied! How can you make this easier? 1. Eat things that are filling with fewer calories. Think vegetables and protein. Stay away from things that aren't filling and have a lot of calories. Think candy bars. Water helps too. 2. Walk/run. This will burn calories efficiently and if you attach a fit bit to it, you can incorporate the calories burned into your 1500 number above. Weight lifting doesn't burn many calories, though it's nice for your overall health of course. You're stuck on how fat cells are stored or insulin levels? How is that at all approachable.

feifan 5y ago
Oh I know, I've done basically the same thing and dropped/kept off ~20 pounds. My point is that physiologically it's hard, and by reducing it to just-a-number or just-willpower, it's ignoring very real aspects of life for many people (myself included when I did that). In technical terms, CICO is a very leaky abstraction.
- yupper32 5y ago
  > In technical terms, CICO is a very leaky abstraction. I'd call everything else an abstraction. Intermittent fasting and Keto all conform to CICO as an abstraction. Which is fine and you're right. Calorie counting is the most direct diet but is not for everyone.