5 ms·

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatis... "Corporate" means body

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatis... "Corporate" means body, and isnt used in its modern sense. Fascism is, as you'll see, exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting. A fascist corporation is a collective owned by the state.

a3n 5y ago
Merged with or owned by, the results would seem to be too similar to distinguish.
- viro 5y ago
  what do you think happens to workers at a building when protesters block the gate to leave?
  - a3n 5y ago
    They have to wait.
    - viro 5y ago
      so they get held captive? until when ? how long do I have to be illegally held captive because your morals disagree with my legal work?
      - a3n 5y ago
        Democracy, and society in general, is messy. It certainly isn't binary. When legal protest doesn't work, it's sometimes necessary to resort to civil disobedience. That's messy and gray.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Why are you believing Fascist propaganda? Yes, Mussolini said that a Fascist corporation was a collective owned by the state with employees having most of the control. In reality that's not what he intended. In practice the state did not have economic control over the corporations. In the example of Nazi Germany, the cooperation of large industrialists was necessary for accession to power, and the state was too incompetent to achieve even basic control over the economy, so it was privatised and the leaders of corporations instead were integrated into the social Darwinist structure of society that the Nazis loved so much. Which turned out to work pretty well with unbounded free markets.
- unclesaamm 5y ago
  Not sure why you're downvoted, since what you're saying is true. See, eg, this article: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reich/ https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reic...
- mjburgess 5y ago
  It's not propaganda to quote what the meaning of the phrase was. He didnt say, "fascism is the police giving businesses information", he said the /opposite/. The quote is expressed in a language which is here grossly misinterpreted. The idea that any *dictatorial* state of ww2 era had "unbounded free markets" is pretty insane, and reveals that it is your agenda to associate modern political movemnets you dislike with a totalised military state of the 1940s; in which every citizen was consripted into the military. I dont know why anyone today things a totalised military state has anything to do with modern politics; it doesnt.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Free markets unbounded by the government in every way cannot exist. That's because the state is necessary to the scale of markets. The closest approximation is states where winners in the market are winners in politics, and fascism historically approximated that quite well. "Totalised military state" is a meaningless sentence, and Fascism existed before and after "every citizen was conscripted into the military". If you think that the defining feature of Fascism is militarism and conscription, you simply misunderstand what fascism is. There is much, much more to fascism than Nazi Germany within a 4 year time period. War is the logical tendency of Fascism, but it is not it's defining feature. Yes, it's very important to modern politics. If you don't understand what fascism is in its essence, you miss that. I'd suggest a lecture of Ur Fascism if you want an idea of the essence of Fascism, though there are competing views that you could defend as well, none of which are resumed by militarism.
    - mjburgess 5y ago
      "fascism" is a term co-opted by literary professors and psycho-analysts from political science to accuse people of a fashist "psychology" which somehow leads to nazism. It is pseudo-scientific mumbojumbo. Fascism was the italian response to the mass death of WW1 which confronted european socieites with a choice: either turn all of society into an offense military capbaility; or turn it into a defensive one. The demoncracies chose the latter, the dictatorships chose the former. And hence didnt merely "conscript" people, they militarised all of society. This is what "totalised" means: that there is nothing outside of the state. This was the only way to respond to WW1 offesively: the whole country had to become a war machine, as world-wars required whole-country organization and militarization. > The closest approximation is states where winners in the market are winners in politics, and fascism historically approximated that quite well. Dear me. This is just pseudoscientific literary professors with no understanding of political science repeating slurs. A free market capitalist system is a state system because its fundamental unit is the collective known as "a business" whose legal integrity is provided by state guarentees. But the whole point of that system is to entirely divorce the political mechanisms of the state from the economic mechanisms of the market. The state guarentees the integrity of private collectives and private individuals from the state. You cannot have a free market system in which "winners in the markets" are "winners in politics". You're describing the opposite of a free market system; something much more akin to the commnuism of the USSR. This is exactly the opposite of the intensions of capitalism, in which autonomy is granted to private collectives to enable them to take risks on their on behalf, benefit from their success, and pursure their own economic interests. Where this is subsubmed by the state, the entire purpose of the system is removed. This would be like saying, "the only true socialism is where the state is a business". Incoherent.
specialist 5y ago
awesome: profoundly reverential awful: causing dread https://www.etymonline.com/word/awe?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_19020 https://www.etymonline.com/word/awe?ref=etymonline_crossrefe... Words are weird. Adults understand context, limits of reductionism.

a3n 5y ago

Merged with or owned by, the results would seem to be too similar to distinguish.

viro 5y ago
what do you think happens to workers at a building when protesters block the gate to leave?
- a3n 5y ago
  They have to wait.
  - viro 5y ago
    so they get held captive? until when ? how long do I have to be illegally held captive because your morals disagree with my legal work?
    - a3n 5y ago
      Democracy, and society in general, is messy. It certainly isn't binary. When legal protest doesn't work, it's sometimes necessary to resort to civil disobedience. That's messy and gray.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Why are you believing Fascist propaganda? Yes, Mussolini said that a Fascist corporation was a collective owned by the state with employees having most of the control. In reality that's not what he intended. In practice the state did not have economic control over the corporations. In the example of Nazi Germany, the cooperation of large industrialists was necessary for accession to power, and the state was too incompetent to achieve even basic control over the economy, so it was privatised and the leaders of corporations instead were integrated into the social Darwinist structure of society that the Nazis loved so much. Which turned out to work pretty well with unbounded free markets.

unclesaamm 5y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted, since what you're saying is true. See, eg, this article: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reich/ https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reic...
mjburgess 5y ago
It's not propaganda to quote what the meaning of the phrase was. He didnt say, "fascism is the police giving businesses information", he said the /opposite/. The quote is expressed in a language which is here grossly misinterpreted. The idea that any *dictatorial* state of ww2 era had "unbounded free markets" is pretty insane, and reveals that it is your agenda to associate modern political movemnets you dislike with a totalised military state of the 1940s; in which every citizen was consripted into the military. I dont know why anyone today things a totalised military state has anything to do with modern politics; it doesnt.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Free markets unbounded by the government in every way cannot exist. That's because the state is necessary to the scale of markets. The closest approximation is states where winners in the market are winners in politics, and fascism historically approximated that quite well. "Totalised military state" is a meaningless sentence, and Fascism existed before and after "every citizen was conscripted into the military". If you think that the defining feature of Fascism is militarism and conscription, you simply misunderstand what fascism is. There is much, much more to fascism than Nazi Germany within a 4 year time period. War is the logical tendency of Fascism, but it is not it's defining feature. Yes, it's very important to modern politics. If you don't understand what fascism is in its essence, you miss that. I'd suggest a lecture of Ur Fascism if you want an idea of the essence of Fascism, though there are competing views that you could defend as well, none of which are resumed by militarism.
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    "fascism" is a term co-opted by literary professors and psycho-analysts from political science to accuse people of a fashist "psychology" which somehow leads to nazism. It is pseudo-scientific mumbojumbo. Fascism was the italian response to the mass death of WW1 which confronted european socieites with a choice: either turn all of society into an offense military capbaility; or turn it into a defensive one. The demoncracies chose the latter, the dictatorships chose the former. And hence didnt merely "conscript" people, they militarised all of society. This is what "totalised" means: that there is nothing outside of the state. This was the only way to respond to WW1 offesively: the whole country had to become a war machine, as world-wars required whole-country organization and militarization. > The closest approximation is states where winners in the market are winners in politics, and fascism historically approximated that quite well. Dear me. This is just pseudoscientific literary professors with no understanding of political science repeating slurs. A free market capitalist system is a state system because its fundamental unit is the collective known as "a business" whose legal integrity is provided by state guarentees. But the whole point of that system is to entirely divorce the political mechanisms of the state from the economic mechanisms of the market. The state guarentees the integrity of private collectives and private individuals from the state. You cannot have a free market system in which "winners in the markets" are "winners in politics". You're describing the opposite of a free market system; something much more akin to the commnuism of the USSR. This is exactly the opposite of the intensions of capitalism, in which autonomy is granted to private collectives to enable them to take risks on their on behalf, benefit from their success, and pursure their own economic interests. Where this is subsubmed by the state, the entire purpose of the system is removed. This would be like saying, "the only true socialism is where the state is a business". Incoherent.

specialist 5y ago

awesome: profoundly reverential awful: causing dread https://www.etymonline.com/word/awe?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_19020 https://www.etymonline.com/word/awe?ref=etymonline_crossrefe... Words are weird. Adults understand context, limits of reductionism.