7 ms·

In Minnesota 645k people had covid and 7k died. In contrast 3M are vaccinated and basically nobody has died from the vaccine. In the US 363M vaccine doses hav

by sjg007 5y ago

In Minnesota 645k people had covid and 7k died. In contrast 3M are vaccinated and basically nobody has died from the vaccine. In the US 363M vaccine doses have been given and about 7k may have died from vaccination side effects vs 628k who have died from covid from covid. So the vaccine is safe and effective.

acituan 5y ago
No one in this forum says otherwise. But you miss human emotions 101: If someone tells you they are worried about something, you don’t throw facts at them as the first thing. You ask them to tell more about their emotions, hear them and make them feel heard. They might as well be missing factual data (as the case with vaccine hesitating folks) but their emotions are real, and unless they are treated as a person they’d be close to influence because they are in a skeptic, anxious state to begin with. Often people barge in like performing an exorcism expecting the power of data compelling the “possessed” demonized other to the “light”. Such vilification is a self-fulfilling process.
- sjg007 5y ago
  You are more likely to get hurt or die in car accident on the way to get your vaccine then from the vaccine itself. After that car accident when you are in the hospital recovering you will probably get covid there.
  - acituan 5y ago
    I don't see the relevance of your point. Perhaps you replied to the wrong thread or misunderstood what you've read?
    - sjg007 5y ago
      The point is to translate it into a related human experience vs "throwing out a bunch of numbers and data".
      - acituan 5y ago
        Not only you are still throwing bunch of numbers and data only this time using comparatives ("more likely"), you seem to have also mistaken me as someone in need of convincing, which shows you haven't listened to what I've said careful enough to understand it. If I was a person that needed to be convinced, I would trust you even less just on that basis. Finally you make the assumption that people have a problem with understanding the propositions. I'm saying they have a problem with not being heard about their emotions. You've just demonstrated that, in addition to not listening well.
        sjg007 5y ago
        At this point in the pandemic I would suggest they see a therapist.
angelzen 5y ago
Vaccine protection is weakening over time (boosters), mutations evading the vaccine are around the corner (Pfizer CEO), epidemiological profile is vastly different between <20 and >70. There are 4 other coronaviruses kids get exposed to when young with no vaccine and naturally build immunity for it for a lifetime. Over 30: Take the vaccine and hope for the best. Under 20: a. Take the vaccine and be naked when the vaccine resistant variant eventually emerges. b. Don't take the vaccine and build wide spectrum immunity to infections from covid family. Considering that the risk of complications from covid infection for this age group is in the same ballpark as the flu.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  > a. Take the vaccine and be naked when the vaccine resistant variant eventually emerges. First, this is deeply deeply misleading, to the point of being misinformation. The idea that a version of COVID will pop out that renders the current vaccines completely useless is founded in nothing but alarmist speculation. Could it happen? Maybe. But we have a virus now that's known to be dangerous, for which we have a vaccine that's very effective. To not take that vaccine, now, based on this speculative fear is completely nonsensical. Second, it's a false dichotomy: c. Take the vaccine, get a mild breakthrough case of covid later that builds even stronger protection.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    This is also a possibility. The open scenario is: take the vaccine, don't get a breakthrough case (vaccines work as intended and quickly suppress it), but do get a vaccine-resistant infection later on. If there is more information on the long-term behavior of the immune system conditioned on vaccines and/or natural immunity and/or mutations, please share. My understanding is that nobody has a complete understanding and a reliable prediction model. Everybody is making educated guesses in the dark, though I am very open to learn more from credible sources.
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      > Everybody is making educated guesses in the dark, We are absolutely not. Are there many things we don't know about the function of the immune system? Sure. Are we "in the dark"? This couldn't be more incorrect, and again, borders on deeply misleading misinformation. Frankly, this smells a lot like the kind of climate change denial we used to hear. i.e., because there was uncertainty, we therefore can trust nothing and know nothing. And that "logic" was just as flawed, then, as it is now.

by sjg007 5y ago

acituan 5y ago

No one in this forum says otherwise. But you miss human emotions 101: If someone tells you they are worried about something, you don’t throw facts at them as the first thing. You ask them to tell more about their emotions, hear them and make them feel heard. They might as well be missing factual data (as the case with vaccine hesitating folks) but their emotions are real, and unless they are treated as a person they’d be close to influence because they are in a skeptic, anxious state to begin with. Often people barge in like performing an exorcism expecting the power of data compelling the “possessed” demonized other to the “light”. Such vilification is a self-fulfilling process.

sjg007 5y ago
You are more likely to get hurt or die in car accident on the way to get your vaccine then from the vaccine itself. After that car accident when you are in the hospital recovering you will probably get covid there.
- acituan 5y ago
  I don't see the relevance of your point. Perhaps you replied to the wrong thread or misunderstood what you've read?
  - sjg007 5y ago
    The point is to translate it into a related human experience vs "throwing out a bunch of numbers and data".
    - acituan 5y ago
      Not only you are still throwing bunch of numbers and data only this time using comparatives ("more likely"), you seem to have also mistaken me as someone in need of convincing, which shows you haven't listened to what I've said careful enough to understand it. If I was a person that needed to be convinced, I would trust you even less just on that basis. Finally you make the assumption that people have a problem with understanding the propositions. I'm saying they have a problem with not being heard about their emotions. You've just demonstrated that, in addition to not listening well.
      - sjg007 5y ago
        At this point in the pandemic I would suggest they see a therapist.

angelzen 5y ago

Vaccine protection is weakening over time (boosters), mutations evading the vaccine are around the corner (Pfizer CEO), epidemiological profile is vastly different between <20 and >70. There are 4 other coronaviruses kids get exposed to when young with no vaccine and naturally build immunity for it for a lifetime. Over 30: Take the vaccine and hope for the best. Under 20: a. Take the vaccine and be naked when the vaccine resistant variant eventually emerges. b. Don't take the vaccine and build wide spectrum immunity to infections from covid family. Considering that the risk of complications from covid infection for this age group is in the same ballpark as the flu.

CarelessExpert 5y ago
> a. Take the vaccine and be naked when the vaccine resistant variant eventually emerges. First, this is deeply deeply misleading, to the point of being misinformation. The idea that a version of COVID will pop out that renders the current vaccines completely useless is founded in nothing but alarmist speculation. Could it happen? Maybe. But we have a virus now that's known to be dangerous, for which we have a vaccine that's very effective. To not take that vaccine, now, based on this speculative fear is completely nonsensical. Second, it's a false dichotomy: c. Take the vaccine, get a mild breakthrough case of covid later that builds even stronger protection.
- angelzen 5y ago
  This is also a possibility. The open scenario is: take the vaccine, don't get a breakthrough case (vaccines work as intended and quickly suppress it), but do get a vaccine-resistant infection later on. If there is more information on the long-term behavior of the immune system conditioned on vaccines and/or natural immunity and/or mutations, please share. My understanding is that nobody has a complete understanding and a reliable prediction model. Everybody is making educated guesses in the dark, though I am very open to learn more from credible sources.
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    > Everybody is making educated guesses in the dark, We are absolutely not. Are there many things we don't know about the function of the immune system? Sure. Are we "in the dark"? This couldn't be more incorrect, and again, borders on deeply misleading misinformation. Frankly, this smells a lot like the kind of climate change denial we used to hear. i.e., because there was uncertainty, we therefore can trust nothing and know nothing. And that "logic" was just as flawed, then, as it is now.