5 ms·

Microsoft putting ads into the OS was a real low blow, and they've made some really bad blunders over the years. But there is nothing more valuable to me than

Microsoft putting ads into the OS was a real low blow, and they've made some really bad blunders over the years. But there is nothing more valuable to me than my time. It takes me less time to be productive on Windows and OS X and remove all the junk, than it does to waste countless hours trying to get a Linux DE configured "just right" based on whatever combo I'm using and feature parity I need. I'll chose my time over my money, and I'm OK with that. Turns out paying professionals for quality goods is an alright business model, and I'm not losing any sleep by not having source code access.

mrmonkeyman 5y ago
You'll have a blast paying thousands of dollars for rented, ad-laden, subpar machines with 90s performance that monitor every move you make. I, for one, welcome our various overlords. May we be instruments in their capable hands. May our thoughts be forever monitored and watched for vigilance is of the utmost importance.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
I too value my time. And yes, MacOS or Windows allow you to be productive almost right away compared to say Arch Linux. Compared to something like Ubuntu, I'm not so sure. And things which I use daily don't seem supported on Windows (using the GPG app on my Yubikey for SSH access). But this is just an upfront cost. With Windows, which I've tried to use regularly, there are many annoyances which introduce friction in the day to day. So the "opex" if you will is much higher. Just this morning I started my Windows machine to play a quick game and wanted to check out something on the internet beforehand. It started bugging me about some "recommended browser settings" in some Edge window that showed up half off-screen that I couldn't move. Then there's the Windows Terminal app which sometimes takes forever to start up. And windows that pop up and look active but aren't. Then there's a bunch of other little annoyances which I now forget but over a work day end up aggravating. Of course, YMMV as they say, and I know people who aren't as bothered by those. But in case you are annoyed, the upfront cost of setting up your Linux DE just right may be cheaper in the long run. I've spent a while setting up i3 a few years ago, just out of curiosity. I had been a MacOS user at the time for a very long time. But then something happened, and it grew on me. Now I only use my mac from time to time when idly watching a movie in bed, because I find it slower to use. I hate having to hunt around for windows, move then around, click on some Dock icon which sometimes doesn't show, others shows up while it shouldn't (in the full-screen Mail window usually). I guess the point is that different people have different needs and are willing to pay different prices for those. There's also a case to be made about high upfront cost + low maintenance vs low upfront cost + high maintenance. > Turns out paying professionals for quality goods is an alright business model, and I'm not losing any sleep by not having source code access. Well, of course. Only issue is how you define quality, as related to what you need. For me, the price of the Windows license was lumped in the same bin with the GPU. Have to buy it to be able to play a game I wanted to play. But I'd feel robbed if I had to pay for it and than have to use it for my job. In my case, I haven't looked under the hood of the Linux kernel or the DE or the terminal app or anything, for that matter. It just works better for me. And I'm also OK to invest some time if it means I'll be more confortable down the road.
- tomnipotent 5y ago
  I've used Linux DE far less than Windows/OS X, but I've spent more time setting up Linux than I ever have on many multiples years more use of the others. This doesn't even include things like digging into systemd or other supporting ecosystem players. Wifi, Bluetooth, HiDPI, and other common DE experiences are not always consistent with Linux distros and across hardware. Wouldn't be surprised if I've spent more time alone on Linux just figuring out network file sharing than all other DE-related configurations combined. On the other hand, I wouldn't deploy software against any other OS (unless it's an app). There's no world where I don't want or see Linux. I'm just not sold on it's DE experience so far. There is no customization you can make to a DE that saves me so much time and energy long term that it makes up for all the other time and energy needed to invest in Linux DE as a daily driver. Most of my energy seems to be devoted to task-specific regiments, more influenced by that tasks software. In twenty five years, I've probably spent less than $3,000 on Microsoft products personally. I've got my moneys worth.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    I've found Linux filesharing easier to work with than Windows but that's about it.
    - tomnipotent 5y ago
      Windows and OS X come ready for both SMB and NFS, which is the bulk of experiences I encounter. Apple AirDrop has also been very useful. Mounting remote file systems can be done easily in the GUI, as can sharing. Like any such software, it's going to have a learning curve. I can't remember the last time I was on Linux and didn't have to start off by installing cifs-utils, and then hunting down instructions on writing an .smbcredentials file. Windows also makes it (relatively) easy to administer file sharing if you're on a AD domain. All said and done, I personally use Unraid for my home NAS.
      - xupybd 5y ago
        Yeah using samba is just as hard on Linux. I've struggled to get AD to work correctly with older PC's. We run CNCs with Win 98. NFS is simpler and easier to manage.
kelnos 5y ago
The last time I configured my DE was when I switched to Xfce 15 or so years ago. Since then, whenever I get a new laptop, I just copy my home directory from the old one to the new one and it just works.
- tomnipotent 5y ago
  And you've made no tweaks or changes in the 15 years since? I have changes to my dot files on a constant basis (not to mention changing hardware needs).
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I've not touched a dotfile in a decade+. One thing that people fall into is the ability to tweak things endlessly. If you simply don't do that and use a good default install then you are going to do just fine without all that tuning. For me my main tools are shell, browser, various audio related programs (audacity, midi editors, score editors and so on) and installing a new linux machine takes about as long as copying the data off the medium takes. Then I copy over (or mount, depending on the circumstances) my homedir and get to work.
laurent92 5y ago
Ubuntu also had ads in it: In 2013 they started displaying Amazon Books in their “Start menu”, which had the effect of uploading any keystroke of the main menu.
- vetinari 5y ago
  After the outrcy, the also removed it and never tried it again. The other systems did not react the same way; they still consider that doing it is fine.
dijit 5y ago
> But there is nothing more valuable to me than my time. It takes me less time to be productive on Windows and OS X and remove all the junk, than it does to waste countless hours trying to get a Linux DE configured "just right" based on whatever combo I'm using and feature parity I need. Yeah, I agree. But the major difference might be that once configured a linux desktop environment is "just right" for quite a lot longer than you think -- and once it is "just right" you get marginal productivity gains in small aspects, which in aggregate, is probably a lot of time saved. I'm a bit biased because I already sank the cost into my desktop setup in 2011. But frankly: my desktop environment very much gets out of my way.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Setting a window to be "always on top" saves me more time than all of window's productivity features combined.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    To me it's to pull the plug on my ethernet connection.
threatofrain 5y ago
IMO the developer experience on Linux is first class, and it's ordinary user experience that drives me to MacOS — all the apps and games which will probably never come to Linux. Plus, notwithstanding the CSAM detection thing, Apple has been steadily introducing a stream of really sweet consumer privacy features for the ordinary user, such as Sign in with Apple, Apple relay (basically TOR lite for grandma), email aliases, etc.
ciupicri 5y ago
Even the installation process has junk in the final steps when it insists on asking about cloud and stuff, although you want just a regular local account. In end I found it easier to use an Autounattend.xml [1], then deal with that crap. [1]: created with https://www.windowsafg.com/win10x86_x64_uefi.html https://www.windowsafg.com/win10x86_x64_uefi.html

mrmonkeyman 5y ago

You'll have a blast paying thousands of dollars for rented, ad-laden, subpar machines with 90s performance that monitor every move you make. I, for one, welcome our various overlords. May we be instruments in their capable hands. May our thoughts be forever monitored and watched for vigilance is of the utmost importance.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

I too value my time. And yes, MacOS or Windows allow you to be productive almost right away compared to say Arch Linux. Compared to something like Ubuntu, I'm not so sure. And things which I use daily don't seem supported on Windows (using the GPG app on my Yubikey for SSH access). But this is just an upfront cost. With Windows, which I've tried to use regularly, there are many annoyances which introduce friction in the day to day. So the "opex" if you will is much higher. Just this morning I started my Windows machine to play a quick game and wanted to check out something on the internet beforehand. It started bugging me about some "recommended browser settings" in some Edge window that showed up half off-screen that I couldn't move. Then there's the Windows Terminal app which sometimes takes forever to start up. And windows that pop up and look active but aren't. Then there's a bunch of other little annoyances which I now forget but over a work day end up aggravating. Of course, YMMV as they say, and I know people who aren't as bothered by those. But in case you are annoyed, the upfront cost of setting up your Linux DE just right may be cheaper in the long run. I've spent a while setting up i3 a few years ago, just out of curiosity. I had been a MacOS user at the time for a very long time. But then something happened, and it grew on me. Now I only use my mac from time to time when idly watching a movie in bed, because I find it slower to use. I hate having to hunt around for windows, move then around, click on some Dock icon which sometimes doesn't show, others shows up while it shouldn't (in the full-screen Mail window usually). I guess the point is that different people have different needs and are willing to pay different prices for those. There's also a case to be made about high upfront cost + low maintenance vs low upfront cost + high maintenance. > Turns out paying professionals for quality goods is an alright business model, and I'm not losing any sleep by not having source code access. Well, of course. Only issue is how you define quality, as related to what you need. For me, the price of the Windows license was lumped in the same bin with the GPU. Have to buy it to be able to play a game I wanted to play. But I'd feel robbed if I had to pay for it and than have to use it for my job. In my case, I haven't looked under the hood of the Linux kernel or the DE or the terminal app or anything, for that matter. It just works better for me. And I'm also OK to invest some time if it means I'll be more confortable down the road.

tomnipotent 5y ago
I've used Linux DE far less than Windows/OS X, but I've spent more time setting up Linux than I ever have on many multiples years more use of the others. This doesn't even include things like digging into systemd or other supporting ecosystem players. Wifi, Bluetooth, HiDPI, and other common DE experiences are not always consistent with Linux distros and across hardware. Wouldn't be surprised if I've spent more time alone on Linux just figuring out network file sharing than all other DE-related configurations combined. On the other hand, I wouldn't deploy software against any other OS (unless it's an app). There's no world where I don't want or see Linux. I'm just not sold on it's DE experience so far. There is no customization you can make to a DE that saves me so much time and energy long term that it makes up for all the other time and energy needed to invest in Linux DE as a daily driver. Most of my energy seems to be devoted to task-specific regiments, more influenced by that tasks software. In twenty five years, I've probably spent less than $3,000 on Microsoft products personally. I've got my moneys worth.
- xupybd 5y ago
  I've found Linux filesharing easier to work with than Windows but that's about it.
  - tomnipotent 5y ago
    Windows and OS X come ready for both SMB and NFS, which is the bulk of experiences I encounter. Apple AirDrop has also been very useful. Mounting remote file systems can be done easily in the GUI, as can sharing. Like any such software, it's going to have a learning curve. I can't remember the last time I was on Linux and didn't have to start off by installing cifs-utils, and then hunting down instructions on writing an .smbcredentials file. Windows also makes it (relatively) easy to administer file sharing if you're on a AD domain. All said and done, I personally use Unraid for my home NAS.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      Yeah using samba is just as hard on Linux. I've struggled to get AD to work correctly with older PC's. We run CNCs with Win 98. NFS is simpler and easier to manage.

kelnos 5y ago

The last time I configured my DE was when I switched to Xfce 15 or so years ago. Since then, whenever I get a new laptop, I just copy my home directory from the old one to the new one and it just works.

tomnipotent 5y ago
And you've made no tweaks or changes in the 15 years since? I have changes to my dot files on a constant basis (not to mention changing hardware needs).
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I've not touched a dotfile in a decade+. One thing that people fall into is the ability to tweak things endlessly. If you simply don't do that and use a good default install then you are going to do just fine without all that tuning. For me my main tools are shell, browser, various audio related programs (audacity, midi editors, score editors and so on) and installing a new linux machine takes about as long as copying the data off the medium takes. Then I copy over (or mount, depending on the circumstances) my homedir and get to work.

laurent92 5y ago

Ubuntu also had ads in it: In 2013 they started displaying Amazon Books in their “Start menu”, which had the effect of uploading any keystroke of the main menu.

vetinari 5y ago
After the outrcy, the also removed it and never tried it again. The other systems did not react the same way; they still consider that doing it is fine.

dijit 5y ago

> But there is nothing more valuable to me than my time. It takes me less time to be productive on Windows and OS X and remove all the junk, than it does to waste countless hours trying to get a Linux DE configured "just right" based on whatever combo I'm using and feature parity I need. Yeah, I agree. But the major difference might be that once configured a linux desktop environment is "just right" for quite a lot longer than you think -- and once it is "just right" you get marginal productivity gains in small aspects, which in aggregate, is probably a lot of time saved. I'm a bit biased because I already sank the cost into my desktop setup in 2011. But frankly: my desktop environment very much gets out of my way.

sandworm101 5y ago
Setting a window to be "always on top" saves me more time than all of window's productivity features combined.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  To me it's to pull the plug on my ethernet connection.

threatofrain 5y ago

IMO the developer experience on Linux is first class, and it's ordinary user experience that drives me to MacOS — all the apps and games which will probably never come to Linux. Plus, notwithstanding the CSAM detection thing, Apple has been steadily introducing a stream of really sweet consumer privacy features for the ordinary user, such as Sign in with Apple, Apple relay (basically TOR lite for grandma), email aliases, etc.

ciupicri 5y ago

Even the installation process has junk in the final steps when it insists on asking about cloud and stuff, although you want just a regular local account. In end I found it easier to use an Autounattend.xml [1], then deal with that crap. [1]: created with https://www.windowsafg.com/win10x86_x64_uefi.html https://www.windowsafg.com/win10x86_x64_uefi.html