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Right - but without getting into the merits of apple's approach - what is the support for this claim that apple has worse reputation here than facebook etc? I

Right - but without getting into the merits of apple's approach - what is the support for this claim that apple has worse reputation here than facebook etc? I see the links to EFF groups which have (repeatedly) gone crazy over this. But the broader public? Are we even clear that the public doesn't like the new features (snitching on porn going to kids / CSAM detection)? These types of things tend to be pretty politically popular. In other words, if govt does get involved - will it actually block apple from blocking porn sent to children to help prevent apple from "destroying" their users trust? How does that even work politically? I get the HN crowd is majorly against this in aggregate - but that is not the general public (and obviously not all HN folks are making the kinds of claims we are seeing get upvoted here - destroyed all trust, committing felonies etc).

haswell 5y ago
IMO, the degree of violation has a lot to do with the history of each of these companies up to today. Drawing a somewhat crude analogy, if a person is a serial cheater in their relationships, and they are known for such cheating, and they don't really claim to be anything but a cheater, it doesn't really surprise anyone when they cheat. If someone agrees to be in a relationship with such a person with the full knowledge that they tend to cheat, that person cheats, no one is very surprised. On the other hand, if someone is known as "generally a standup individual", and they're generally seen as trustworthy, reliable and faithful, and someone starts a relationship with that person, the degree of betrayal when that "trustworthy" person cheats is much greater than the betrayal of the serial cheater. Basically, Google/Facebook haven't built their business on claiming to care about privacy. Apple has. Even if Apple does exactly the same things that Google/Facebook are doing, it's a greater betrayal.
- slownews45 5y ago
  Interesting - the sales numbers for the new iphone will test these claims very concretely indeed given this massive betrayal! Either they will flop as people reject apple for this betrayal, or they may be amazing if it turns out these claims of worse than google and facebook are totally false.
  - haswell 5y ago
    You seem to have concluded that sales numbers somehow change the nature of what Apple is doing here. Good sales numbers would be a strong signal that users don't care (or don't understand). This doesn't change the fundamental issues with these changes.
    - slownews45 5y ago
      We are getting lots of claims that apple has "destroyed" it's reputation. Other comments say that apple has "destroyed" is brand. This is a very significant set of claims, because apple's brand is KEY to what apple offers, what they charge, and what they sell. In other words - $X in parts cost $Y with the apple brand on it - because of users trust in apple. This is why brand surveys are done. You can see that brands (alone) make a huge difference in pricing / sales power vs basic functionality (sometimes ridiculously so in things like handbags). You are making my point for me. It is possible - very possible - that despite the outrage on HN at these efforts around child porn, the demands that govt criminally prosecute apple etc, that in actual fact users may not care or may LIKE these types of features, and that similarly, govt may not prosecute apple for the supposedly felonies they are committing but will LIKE what they are doing here and thank them for it. In the end apple may not have "destroyed" users trust so that they are seen as worse than facebook (!!) but may continue to be trusted (at least as much as facebook - which is NOT AT ALL), and be able to sell products at a premium etc. When you say Apple is worse than facebook - that is a VERY strong claim. Do folks on HN not understand this? When folks claim apple is committing felonies those are strong claims. So you need some strong evidence. Apple is a business - they may decide they want to take an anti-child porn stance. Is this bad for business? We will see. They will make the argument I'm sure that they will continue to do privacy as well - but the balance there is different than what HN wants, but may be fine by users. It just gets a bit tiring hearing that apple is destroyed (which comes up in lots of ways) when my own read is they are long way from being destroyed.
      - haswell 5y ago
        Consumers happily spend money on - Cigarettes - Gambling - Loot boxes (more gambling) - Micro transactions like gems - Unproven miracle cures The existence of a market and the purchaser's willingness/happiness with the product do not confer value judgements onto the products they're purchasing. You seem to be arguing that consumer sentiment trumps all, and that if customers are still buying, then everything must be ok. > Is this bad for business? We will see. We will see, but this is not the most important metric to track. Half of the people I know won't even comprehend the change, and even fewer will understand the farther reaching consequences if we do indeed slip down the slippery slope that everyone worries about. If at the end of the day, we're at the very bottom of that slope, and dissidents are getting arrested pre-emptively for views that don't align with their governments, no one will care that "Apple users were still happy to buy the phone". You must evaluate these kinds of solutions / policies on their merits (and downsides), not solely on their popularity. In a world where every consumer is well educated and can understand the nuances of this change, then I'd be more open to your position. Since we don't live in that world, I stand by the comments above.

haswell 5y ago

IMO, the degree of violation has a lot to do with the history of each of these companies up to today. Drawing a somewhat crude analogy, if a person is a serial cheater in their relationships, and they are known for such cheating, and they don't really claim to be anything but a cheater, it doesn't really surprise anyone when they cheat. If someone agrees to be in a relationship with such a person with the full knowledge that they tend to cheat, that person cheats, no one is very surprised. On the other hand, if someone is known as "generally a standup individual", and they're generally seen as trustworthy, reliable and faithful, and someone starts a relationship with that person, the degree of betrayal when that "trustworthy" person cheats is much greater than the betrayal of the serial cheater. Basically, Google/Facebook haven't built their business on claiming to care about privacy. Apple has. Even if Apple does exactly the same things that Google/Facebook are doing, it's a greater betrayal.

slownews45 5y ago
Interesting - the sales numbers for the new iphone will test these claims very concretely indeed given this massive betrayal! Either they will flop as people reject apple for this betrayal, or they may be amazing if it turns out these claims of worse than google and facebook are totally false.
- haswell 5y ago
  You seem to have concluded that sales numbers somehow change the nature of what Apple is doing here. Good sales numbers would be a strong signal that users don't care (or don't understand). This doesn't change the fundamental issues with these changes.
  - slownews45 5y ago
    We are getting lots of claims that apple has "destroyed" it's reputation. Other comments say that apple has "destroyed" is brand. This is a very significant set of claims, because apple's brand is KEY to what apple offers, what they charge, and what they sell. In other words - $X in parts cost $Y with the apple brand on it - because of users trust in apple. This is why brand surveys are done. You can see that brands (alone) make a huge difference in pricing / sales power vs basic functionality (sometimes ridiculously so in things like handbags). You are making my point for me. It is possible - very possible - that despite the outrage on HN at these efforts around child porn, the demands that govt criminally prosecute apple etc, that in actual fact users may not care or may LIKE these types of features, and that similarly, govt may not prosecute apple for the supposedly felonies they are committing but will LIKE what they are doing here and thank them for it. In the end apple may not have "destroyed" users trust so that they are seen as worse than facebook (!!) but may continue to be trusted (at least as much as facebook - which is NOT AT ALL), and be able to sell products at a premium etc. When you say Apple is worse than facebook - that is a VERY strong claim. Do folks on HN not understand this? When folks claim apple is committing felonies those are strong claims. So you need some strong evidence. Apple is a business - they may decide they want to take an anti-child porn stance. Is this bad for business? We will see. They will make the argument I'm sure that they will continue to do privacy as well - but the balance there is different than what HN wants, but may be fine by users. It just gets a bit tiring hearing that apple is destroyed (which comes up in lots of ways) when my own read is they are long way from being destroyed.
    - haswell 5y ago
      Consumers happily spend money on - Cigarettes - Gambling - Loot boxes (more gambling) - Micro transactions like gems - Unproven miracle cures The existence of a market and the purchaser's willingness/happiness with the product do not confer value judgements onto the products they're purchasing. You seem to be arguing that consumer sentiment trumps all, and that if customers are still buying, then everything must be ok. > Is this bad for business? We will see. We will see, but this is not the most important metric to track. Half of the people I know won't even comprehend the change, and even fewer will understand the farther reaching consequences if we do indeed slip down the slippery slope that everyone worries about. If at the end of the day, we're at the very bottom of that slope, and dissidents are getting arrested pre-emptively for views that don't align with their governments, no one will care that "Apple users were still happy to buy the phone". You must evaluate these kinds of solutions / policies on their merits (and downsides), not solely on their popularity. In a world where every consumer is well educated and can understand the nuances of this change, then I'd be more open to your position. Since we don't live in that world, I stand by the comments above.