6 ms·

I can’t agree with this in 2021, but not for the reasons one might think. I agree that native app development never became a cohesive or predictable thing. But

I can’t agree with this in 2021, but not for the reasons one might think. I agree that native app development never became a cohesive or predictable thing. But then most apps that people use these days aren’t native. Business apps: Google Docs & Microsoft Office both have web versions that are good enough for many people. Mail / calendar clients: I am a nerd who prefers to use emacs for email, but I’m the weirdo—just like anyone who uses a native Outlook client. I also use Fastmail’s web interface, its iOS app, and the mail app on my iPhone. And even that is weird, because everyone just uses Gmail. Laptop support: Yes that used to be a problem for Linux for varying definitions of “recently.” Used to be. My corp-issued laptop took to Linux just fine with nothing discernibly less functional than Windows. The apps that don’t exist on the web are getting more and more niche.

ubermonkey 5y ago
I do not interact with any professional contacts who use Gmail. It's universally Exchange in my professional life. This MIGHT be because the invite/accept/scheduling setup in Exchange is so good that it's hard to sell anything else. It also might be that most big orgs are very wisely reticent to host their email with an advertising company. I'm also gonna push back on the "web tools are enough for most people." I mean, how effective is the web version of Excel, really? Can it easily interact with local data stores for elaborate data mining and updatable queries? My guess is "probably not". How is it for macro development? My company works closely with the finance orgs of our client parties, and let me tell you a LOT of these folks are extremely advanced Excel users. Web tools aren't to par here. Web Outlook is also pretty awful compared to the native version, quite honestly, as is Word. Maybe PowerPoint is okay, but I'm not a power user of PPT so I don't really know.
- troutwine 5y ago
  Huh, interesting. Since GSuite became a thing I've never seen Exchange in my professional life, so, generously, since 2007/8? I've only had one employer that used Exchange and they sold a setup for it, but even they were switching internally to use GSuite by the time I left, if I recall correctly. I recall the switch as being extremely abrupt in that era.
  - bcrescimanno 5y ago
    While this isn't a hard and fast rule, GSuite adoption outside of the "tech sector" is extremely low. We have to recognize our own biases and that the experiences of the average HN reader doesn't reflect the larger business world.
    - ubermonkey 5y ago
      Very much this. My professional life has been interacting with very large organizations (as clients, not employers) -- think Fortune 500 firms, if not bigger. Major oil companies (I live in Texas), major defense contractors, etc. These are not GSuite users, generally speaking. It's Office and Exchange in these places. Microsoft is VERY VERY STRONG at the Enterprise level.
      - tailspin2019 5y ago
        I'm in the UK, have also worked a lot with large enterprise customers in Europe and my experience matches yours.
      - midasuni 5y ago
        I’ve used outlook/exchange for nearly 20 years at work, with over a decade of that on the web version, which has got progreso ly more featureful as we upgrade (slowly) to more recent versions. Most recently moved to cloud based exchange and it’s still fine - and none of the sync issues that I hear from people who use macs.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      The largest players in the tech sector are outlook shops. Except Google.
      - jslove 5y ago
        facebook
    - peatmoss 5y ago
- treeman79 5y ago
  If one user in an org does something stupid will Microsoft ban the entire org with no recourse? I doubt it. I setup several companies on google apps. Never had an issue. But I would be more reluctant to do so again.
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    Given that MSFT still sells Exchange that you can host internally, they wouldn't even be ABLE to shut down the org.
- tomrod 5y ago
  > Can it easily interact with local data stores for elaborate data mining and updatable queries? Pushback -- neither excel nor sheets are the right tool for that job.
  - sushisource 5y ago
    Very true, and yet, enormous swaths of the corporate world do exactly this all day every day.
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    They're not IDEAL and they're not what you or I might choose in a vacuum, but for the people I'm talking about, they absolutely ARE. - No other tools are made available to them by their hidebound, ossified IT; - They don't have training in SQL or other query languages, but they are WIZARDS with pivot tables and related technologies. One thing that's hard for tech folks to really internalize is that tool choice is secondary to results for many folks. That's okay. It's especially ok if organizational factors prevent better or more "appropriate" tools.
    - peatmoss 5y ago
      It’s a shrinking niche that uses Excel for data things. I’d argue google docs is fine for people who want to make a shopping list at the low end. And the low barriers to using R or Python with Pandas have been siphoning off the high-end of Excel users for years now. The people you describe still exist, just like me and my fellow emacs users. But we’re not the future.
      - ubermonkey 5y ago
        Let me ask gently what you do professionally, because in our market -- high-end project management financial reporting software sold to very large customers -- Excel is absolutely EVERYWHERE, even with younger clients. R and Pandas are cool, but they do not appear to be gaining market share from people using pivot tables and Power Query in our market.
- mark_l_watson 5y ago
  My experience is different: most companies I have worked for use GSuite. Also, re: web Microsoft 365 Word and Excel: I used to run Linux on the Desktop much more often than I do now, and the web versions of Word and Excel helped a lot stay in Linux.

ubermonkey 5y ago

I do not interact with any professional contacts who use Gmail. It's universally Exchange in my professional life. This MIGHT be because the invite/accept/scheduling setup in Exchange is so good that it's hard to sell anything else. It also might be that most big orgs are very wisely reticent to host their email with an advertising company. I'm also gonna push back on the "web tools are enough for most people." I mean, how effective is the web version of Excel, really? Can it easily interact with local data stores for elaborate data mining and updatable queries? My guess is "probably not". How is it for macro development? My company works closely with the finance orgs of our client parties, and let me tell you a LOT of these folks are extremely advanced Excel users. Web tools aren't to par here. Web Outlook is also pretty awful compared to the native version, quite honestly, as is Word. Maybe PowerPoint is okay, but I'm not a power user of PPT so I don't really know.

troutwine 5y ago
Huh, interesting. Since GSuite became a thing I've never seen Exchange in my professional life, so, generously, since 2007/8? I've only had one employer that used Exchange and they sold a setup for it, but even they were switching internally to use GSuite by the time I left, if I recall correctly. I recall the switch as being extremely abrupt in that era.
- bcrescimanno 5y ago
  While this isn't a hard and fast rule, GSuite adoption outside of the "tech sector" is extremely low. We have to recognize our own biases and that the experiences of the average HN reader doesn't reflect the larger business world.
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    Very much this. My professional life has been interacting with very large organizations (as clients, not employers) -- think Fortune 500 firms, if not bigger. Major oil companies (I live in Texas), major defense contractors, etc. These are not GSuite users, generally speaking. It's Office and Exchange in these places. Microsoft is VERY VERY STRONG at the Enterprise level.
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      I'm in the UK, have also worked a lot with large enterprise customers in Europe and my experience matches yours.
    - midasuni 5y ago
      I’ve used outlook/exchange for nearly 20 years at work, with over a decade of that on the web version, which has got progreso ly more featureful as we upgrade (slowly) to more recent versions. Most recently moved to cloud based exchange and it’s still fine - and none of the sync issues that I hear from people who use macs.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    The largest players in the tech sector are outlook shops. Except Google.
    - jslove 5y ago
      facebook
  - peatmoss 5y ago
treeman79 5y ago
If one user in an org does something stupid will Microsoft ban the entire org with no recourse? I doubt it. I setup several companies on google apps. Never had an issue. But I would be more reluctant to do so again.
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  Given that MSFT still sells Exchange that you can host internally, they wouldn't even be ABLE to shut down the org.
tomrod 5y ago
> Can it easily interact with local data stores for elaborate data mining and updatable queries? Pushback -- neither excel nor sheets are the right tool for that job.
- sushisource 5y ago
  Very true, and yet, enormous swaths of the corporate world do exactly this all day every day.
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  They're not IDEAL and they're not what you or I might choose in a vacuum, but for the people I'm talking about, they absolutely ARE. - No other tools are made available to them by their hidebound, ossified IT; - They don't have training in SQL or other query languages, but they are WIZARDS with pivot tables and related technologies. One thing that's hard for tech folks to really internalize is that tool choice is secondary to results for many folks. That's okay. It's especially ok if organizational factors prevent better or more "appropriate" tools.
  - peatmoss 5y ago
    It’s a shrinking niche that uses Excel for data things. I’d argue google docs is fine for people who want to make a shopping list at the low end. And the low barriers to using R or Python with Pandas have been siphoning off the high-end of Excel users for years now. The people you describe still exist, just like me and my fellow emacs users. But we’re not the future.
    - ubermonkey 5y ago
      Let me ask gently what you do professionally, because in our market -- high-end project management financial reporting software sold to very large customers -- Excel is absolutely EVERYWHERE, even with younger clients. R and Pandas are cool, but they do not appear to be gaining market share from people using pivot tables and Power Query in our market.
mark_l_watson 5y ago
My experience is different: most companies I have worked for use GSuite. Also, re: web Microsoft 365 Word and Excel: I used to run Linux on the Desktop much more often than I do now, and the web versions of Word and Excel helped a lot stay in Linux.