6 ms·

You are being downvoted, but your comment is sadly accurate and not exaggerated. The members of the Académie Française prescribe the language out of there asse

by jraph 5y ago

You are being downvoted, but your comment is sadly accurate and not exaggerated. The members of the Académie Française prescribe the language out of there asses instead of observing how people actually speak it and documenting the language according to this observation. Last example is the gender of "Covid". Unlike our Canadian friends, everybody in France started saying "le covid". Only for the Académie Française to wake up a few months later, telling everyone to say "la covid", out of dubious and easily countered justifications. The members of the Académie are not even linguists. They are regular, if conservative, speakers at best. I don't know why I would even trust them on handling the language better than random people on the street. But actually, random people on the street are the ones defining the language. The right approach for covid would have been to say "ok, everybody here says "le covid". Canadians happen to say "la covid". Covid is therefore either feminine or masculine". Wifi has both genders in France and nobody died because of this. English is spoken a bit differently depending on the area of the world and there are rules which are discussed. So what. No academies will change that by the way. French is spoken slightly differently across France, never mind across the world. Just pick your style and your version, and be consistent in your formal writing if you value this kind of things. (And yes, you can split infinitives in English, obviously ;-))

leephillips 5y ago
> be consistent in your formal writing But consistent with what? With just yourself (that might be OK). The Académie provides a standard that you can be consistent with.
- jraph 5y ago
  > But consistent with what? With just yourself (that might be OK). Yep, that's what I meant. Within a (set of) text(s). Each newspaper has its set of rules to follow to ensure consistency, so if you need consistency across an organization you can do this. English newspapers do that too. > The Académie provides a standard that you can be consistent with. ...And that people don't consistently follow, because this standard does not reflect the reality of how the language is spoken or written. Almost by definition. Anyway, we are still waiting for their dictionary, which first edition should have been released maybe a century ago. They have one important task and they can't manage to finish it. Not a big issue though (except for the money thrown out of the window), if you need a dictionary that actually works you have the Robert or Wiktionary. But we need documentation for the French language and that's why the Observatoire de la langue française exists (http://observatoire.francophonie.org/l-observatoire-de-la-langue-francaise/ http://observatoire.francophonie.org/l-observatoire-de-la-la...). Anyway, each individual is going to speak the language with their own quirks and particularities. Consistency across everybody is unreachable. But that's fine. For Covid, the Académie has ironically been a source of inconsistency. Before their intervention, everybody had been saying "le covid". All was well. Now, usage is uncertain here.
vagrantJin 5y ago
> Covid is therefore either feminine or masculine". Wifi has both genders in France and nobody died because of this. Im not a native English speaker so I need to clarify my confusion. I take it WIFI is a noun. How is gender prescribed to a noun?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jraph 5y ago
  I was speaking about French. In French, most nouns have genders. Usually, the gender is well defined but for some nouns like Wifi, the gender is different depending on the area or even across people. Where I live, wifi is mostly masculine, but you hear the feminine form often enough. Usually from people from the South West of France but not exclusively. You can notice the gender of the noun from the article: le wifi, un wifi, or from the adjectives qualifying it, if any.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  English doesn't have a notion of gendered nouns. In a lot of other European languages, however, they have them. I don't know French so can't draw any examples from it, but in Italian "tavolo" (table) is masculine while "sedia" (chair) is feminine. The reason for that is, at this point in time, by definition of the language. However, when creating novel words or bringing in loanwords the choice is largely arbitrary. GP is pointing out that the Académie Française chose to assign covid the feminine gender despite the popular use of the masculine gender for it in widespread use before their decision.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > English doesn't have a notion of gendered nouns. ‘She’s a fine ship.’
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      I actually did have that in my original comment but it didn't survive an edit. Vehicles, vessels, countries and a few others seem to get a gender, but it's not actually a part of the language in the same sense as in Spanish, Italian, German, French, and others. It more seems to reflect a kind of personification (the nation as an entity becomes a she, same with a ship). That's distinct from the grammatical gender in other languages.
gregsadetsky 5y ago
The Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF)'s relatively nuanced take on it is here: http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26557671 http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26557671 "On constate une hésitation dans le genre attribué au terme COVID-19" -- "One can sense some hesitation regarding the gender assigned to the term COVID-19" The feminine form ("la covid") might come (according to the OQLF, at least) from "la maladie à coronavirus 2019" i.e. "maladie" (which is feminine) "transferring" its gender over to "covid". --- Actually, now that I read the Académie Française's take on it, I don't find it too unreasonable: https://www.academie-francaise.fr/le-covid-19-ou-la-covid-19 https://www.academie-francaise.fr/le-covid-19-ou-la-covid-19 They state (as does the OQLF) that the gender is transferred over from the "core" word of the expression. So, "la" (feminine) SNCF because SNCF stands for "Société nationale des chemins de fer français" and "Société" (the core word) is feminine. "la" covid, again, because of "maladie" (which is feminine) The Académie says: "Il n’en reste pas moins que l’emploi du féminin serait préférable" -- "That being said, the use of feminine would be preferable". Not _that_ prescriptive. Should the Académie have a prescriptive (vs descriptive) role in every day French (in France / or Canada) is of course a whole debate topic. :-) --- Shameless plug since we're on the topic: I run an Urban Dictionary-like site for French Canadians expressions -- https://www.laparlure.com/ https://www.laparlure.com/ -- it's purely descriptive and user-generated i.e. French (mostly in Canada) "as it's spoken"
- jraph 5y ago
  The explanation is not unreasonable, but you have reasonable explanations for the masculine too. Wifi is a good counter-example: Fidelity is feminine, yet the masculine gender is widespread for Wifi. You can also justify the masculine form by metonymy (at the beginning of the pandemic we mostly said coronavirus, and we shifted to covid but kept the masculine of the former). If you'd like some background on this (in French): - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3BfFPM3qI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3BfFPM3qI (France Inter, short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykIohErTr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykIohErTr8 (short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78FkTtwKw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78FkTtwKw4 (Linguisticae, longer) In short: you cannot argue against the usage, even with the most logical explanation that goes against the usage. Natural languages are far from being formal, entirely consistent and completely logical.

by jraph 5y ago

leephillips 5y ago

> be consistent in your formal writing But consistent with what? With just yourself (that might be OK). The Académie provides a standard that you can be consistent with.

jraph 5y ago
> But consistent with what? With just yourself (that might be OK). Yep, that's what I meant. Within a (set of) text(s). Each newspaper has its set of rules to follow to ensure consistency, so if you need consistency across an organization you can do this. English newspapers do that too. > The Académie provides a standard that you can be consistent with. ...And that people don't consistently follow, because this standard does not reflect the reality of how the language is spoken or written. Almost by definition. Anyway, we are still waiting for their dictionary, which first edition should have been released maybe a century ago. They have one important task and they can't manage to finish it. Not a big issue though (except for the money thrown out of the window), if you need a dictionary that actually works you have the Robert or Wiktionary. But we need documentation for the French language and that's why the Observatoire de la langue française exists (http://observatoire.francophonie.org/l-observatoire-de-la-langue-francaise/ http://observatoire.francophonie.org/l-observatoire-de-la-la...). Anyway, each individual is going to speak the language with their own quirks and particularities. Consistency across everybody is unreachable. But that's fine. For Covid, the Académie has ironically been a source of inconsistency. Before their intervention, everybody had been saying "le covid". All was well. Now, usage is uncertain here.

vagrantJin 5y ago

> Covid is therefore either feminine or masculine". Wifi has both genders in France and nobody died because of this. Im not a native English speaker so I need to clarify my confusion. I take it WIFI is a noun. How is gender prescribed to a noun?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jraph 5y ago
I was speaking about French. In French, most nouns have genders. Usually, the gender is well defined but for some nouns like Wifi, the gender is different depending on the area or even across people. Where I live, wifi is mostly masculine, but you hear the feminine form often enough. Usually from people from the South West of France but not exclusively. You can notice the gender of the noun from the article: le wifi, un wifi, or from the adjectives qualifying it, if any.
Jtsummers 5y ago
English doesn't have a notion of gendered nouns. In a lot of other European languages, however, they have them. I don't know French so can't draw any examples from it, but in Italian "tavolo" (table) is masculine while "sedia" (chair) is feminine. The reason for that is, at this point in time, by definition of the language. However, when creating novel words or bringing in loanwords the choice is largely arbitrary. GP is pointing out that the Académie Française chose to assign covid the feminine gender despite the popular use of the masculine gender for it in widespread use before their decision.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > English doesn't have a notion of gendered nouns. ‘She’s a fine ship.’
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    I actually did have that in my original comment but it didn't survive an edit. Vehicles, vessels, countries and a few others seem to get a gender, but it's not actually a part of the language in the same sense as in Spanish, Italian, German, French, and others. It more seems to reflect a kind of personification (the nation as an entity becomes a she, same with a ship). That's distinct from the grammatical gender in other languages.

gregsadetsky 5y ago

The Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF)'s relatively nuanced take on it is here: http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26557671 http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26557671 "On constate une hésitation dans le genre attribué au terme COVID-19" -- "One can sense some hesitation regarding the gender assigned to the term COVID-19" The feminine form ("la covid") might come (according to the OQLF, at least) from "la maladie à coronavirus 2019" i.e. "maladie" (which is feminine) "transferring" its gender over to "covid". --- Actually, now that I read the Académie Française's take on it, I don't find it too unreasonable: https://www.academie-francaise.fr/le-covid-19-ou-la-covid-19 https://www.academie-francaise.fr/le-covid-19-ou-la-covid-19 They state (as does the OQLF) that the gender is transferred over from the "core" word of the expression. So, "la" (feminine) SNCF because SNCF stands for "Société nationale des chemins de fer français" and "Société" (the core word) is feminine. "la" covid, again, because of "maladie" (which is feminine) The Académie says: "Il n’en reste pas moins que l’emploi du féminin serait préférable" -- "That being said, the use of feminine would be preferable". Not _that_ prescriptive. Should the Académie have a prescriptive (vs descriptive) role in every day French (in France / or Canada) is of course a whole debate topic. :-) --- Shameless plug since we're on the topic: I run an Urban Dictionary-like site for French Canadians expressions -- https://www.laparlure.com/ https://www.laparlure.com/ -- it's purely descriptive and user-generated i.e. French (mostly in Canada) "as it's spoken"

jraph 5y ago
The explanation is not unreasonable, but you have reasonable explanations for the masculine too. Wifi is a good counter-example: Fidelity is feminine, yet the masculine gender is widespread for Wifi. You can also justify the masculine form by metonymy (at the beginning of the pandemic we mostly said coronavirus, and we shifted to covid but kept the masculine of the former). If you'd like some background on this (in French): - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3BfFPM3qI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3BfFPM3qI (France Inter, short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykIohErTr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykIohErTr8 (short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78FkTtwKw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78FkTtwKw4 (Linguisticae, longer) In short: you cannot argue against the usage, even with the most logical explanation that goes against the usage. Natural languages are far from being formal, entirely consistent and completely logical.