5 ms·

The article points out that more supply of roads also leads to less density, which requires more driving, which requires more roads. This is not the short-term

by danhor 5y ago

The article points out that more supply of roads also leads to less density, which requires more driving, which requires more roads. This is not the short-term induced latency but for sure a part of it and part of why katy highway exists.

thereisnospork 5y ago
Lets look at the null position and agree that induced demand is bad and we shouldn't build more roads, which means the question becomes: How many roads should we be tearing up[0], and how do we know when we've torn up the correct amount? Since we a. clearly aren't at the optimal amount of roads[1], and b. induced demand argues that we shouldn't be building more. [0]A clearly nonsensical position.
- danhor 5y ago
  > A clearly nonsensical position. I don't find it nonsensical at all. My city is actively planning to reduce the amount of normal roads in the city center and introducing more & better bicycle lanes. This is very much needed, since while the central crossing does have (some) gutter bike lanes leading to it, it comes close to suicide to use them. Accordingly, no one does and many use the sidewalks that are already too small for comfort without bikes (the city is in a bad spot there, because it's very space constrained in that place. The roads are badly overloaded in the center and no lanes can be added due to the lack of space). A nearby larger city would be well advised to remove traffic & lanes from central locations and allow more bike paths and crucially allow expanding the badly overloaded subways with trams (and dedicated tram ways) near the center. Due to various factors, there's no real option to use more tunnels. They have been routinely over the limits for particulate matter and were successfully sued over it. Now, roads outside of cities are complicated. The larger ones usually can't be easily reduced, but eat a lot of maintenance costs that could go towards higher capacity options (rail). Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox and carefully analyzing existing roads may also make sense. In general, car based travel costs society the most per mile by far. Introducing measures like tolls & car-free cities as well as making alternatives more attractive with shifted spending may reduce demand and thus enable tearing down roads. The question hinges on a false dichotomy that the only solution to demand is more roads, which is part of what this article is arguing against. Edit: An obvious but politically hard solution to overloaded roads is encouraging higher density.

by danhor 5y ago

thereisnospork 5y ago

Lets look at the null position and agree that induced demand is bad and we shouldn't build more roads, which means the question becomes: How many roads should we be tearing up[0], and how do we know when we've torn up the correct amount? Since we a. clearly aren't at the optimal amount of roads[1], and b. induced demand argues that we shouldn't be building more. [0]A clearly nonsensical position.

danhor 5y ago
> A clearly nonsensical position. I don't find it nonsensical at all. My city is actively planning to reduce the amount of normal roads in the city center and introducing more & better bicycle lanes. This is very much needed, since while the central crossing does have (some) gutter bike lanes leading to it, it comes close to suicide to use them. Accordingly, no one does and many use the sidewalks that are already too small for comfort without bikes (the city is in a bad spot there, because it's very space constrained in that place. The roads are badly overloaded in the center and no lanes can be added due to the lack of space). A nearby larger city would be well advised to remove traffic & lanes from central locations and allow more bike paths and crucially allow expanding the badly overloaded subways with trams (and dedicated tram ways) near the center. Due to various factors, there's no real option to use more tunnels. They have been routinely over the limits for particulate matter and were successfully sued over it. Now, roads outside of cities are complicated. The larger ones usually can't be easily reduced, but eat a lot of maintenance costs that could go towards higher capacity options (rail). Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox and carefully analyzing existing roads may also make sense. In general, car based travel costs society the most per mile by far. Introducing measures like tolls & car-free cities as well as making alternatives more attractive with shifted spending may reduce demand and thus enable tearing down roads. The question hinges on a false dichotomy that the only solution to demand is more roads, which is part of what this article is arguing against. Edit: An obvious but politically hard solution to overloaded roads is encouraging higher density.