6 ms·

They both provide a means of running a user-first and privacy-first operating system on a laptop without supporting surveillance capitalists. You can’t really

They both provide a means of running a user-first and privacy-first operating system on a laptop without supporting surveillance capitalists. You can’t really buy a Dell or a MacBook, install Debian or some other *nix OS and make the same claim.

TylerLives 5y ago
What I meant was: Why would System76 failing affect Purism (negatively)? I understand that there's some correlation as they're both targeting a similar audience, but it doesn't seem to me like they depend too much on one another.
- pxc 5y ago
  Purism is downstream to some of System76's coreboot work iirc
- istingray 5y ago
  Appreciate the clarification. I didn't know about the bootwork example, I meant reliant more generally. System76 is one of the few Linux-first hardware companies. Dell and Lenovo do this but as an aside. System76 is 100% Linux. If there were an entire ecosystem of Linux-first open hardware developers, Purism could simply provide a few hardware and software tweaks (ie hw switches for wifi) for enhanced privacy. The problem is Purism is forced to bear the weight of being one of the few open hw/sw vendors AND all the additional anti-surveillance pieces too. Curious if this explanation helped you.
  - TylerLives 5y ago
    It did. Thanks.
vorpalhex 5y ago
You can buy a Dell with Ubuntu already installed...
- istingray 5y ago
  There is one Dell laptop you can buy with Ubuntu: Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition [1] Linux is a side project for Dell at best. [1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/new-xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... edit to add dell link
  - kashura 5y ago
    I don't even see that XPS available on dell.com anymore.
    - istingray 5y ago
      Search engines also seem to have trouble finding it. It turns up only when I enter "dell xps 13 developer edition": https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/new-xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Several of their business PCs support linux. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem...
- contingencies 5y ago
  No longer available and was only ever limited distribution AFAIK. Also, their hardware has a habit of dying suddenly. For non-free vendors I recommend replacing Windows on current-era Lenovo laptop hardware, AFAIK so far everything just works out of the box.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    ...You can order it right now on their site. Admittedly, it takes digging through their similar but old listings. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
fsflover 5y ago
The difference is, most of System76’s laptops are barebones models from Clevo, whereas Purism designs its own laptops.
- istingray 5y ago
  As a new System76 customer, I like their stepwise approach. It tells me they're thinking long term and not rushing. That's what I want to support is a longterm open hardware+software industry. My understanding is they've started selling their own desktop models after selling white-labeled machines in the past. And that with laptops they are quite involved in the design process and are inching towards selling their own custom laptops. If Purism fails it will likely be because they did too much from scratch. Taking on hardware and software all at once is a recipe for disaster. It's super expensive.
  - 3r8Oltr0ziouVDM 5y ago
    Keep in mind that both Purism and System76 still use proprietary CPUs (at least) so their machines are not completely open. There is a backdoor in every Intel and AMD chip that has full control over your computer. If you want 100% open hardware, there is https://www.raptorcs.com/ https://www.raptorcs.com/.
    - Klonoar 5y ago
      I believe both these companies go to lengths to disable Intel ME & co (where possible). Raptor is a cool option if you have the money and want a desktop approach, but if you're after a laptop you're ultimately playing the game of "how much can I deal with binary blobs and proprietary bits". Hell, for Purism's laptops it's not uncommon for people to shove in a different wifi card to get modern speeds - the card they use is used for being able to run with only open source drivers, which are old at this point.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Commercial_ME_disablement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Commer....

TylerLives 5y ago

What I meant was: Why would System76 failing affect Purism (negatively)? I understand that there's some correlation as they're both targeting a similar audience, but it doesn't seem to me like they depend too much on one another.

pxc 5y ago
Purism is downstream to some of System76's coreboot work iirc
istingray 5y ago
Appreciate the clarification. I didn't know about the bootwork example, I meant reliant more generally. System76 is one of the few Linux-first hardware companies. Dell and Lenovo do this but as an aside. System76 is 100% Linux. If there were an entire ecosystem of Linux-first open hardware developers, Purism could simply provide a few hardware and software tweaks (ie hw switches for wifi) for enhanced privacy. The problem is Purism is forced to bear the weight of being one of the few open hw/sw vendors AND all the additional anti-surveillance pieces too. Curious if this explanation helped you.
- TylerLives 5y ago
  It did. Thanks.

vorpalhex 5y ago

You can buy a Dell with Ubuntu already installed...

istingray 5y ago
There is one Dell laptop you can buy with Ubuntu: Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition [1] Linux is a side project for Dell at best. [1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/new-xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... edit to add dell link
- kashura 5y ago
  I don't even see that XPS available on dell.com anymore.
  - istingray 5y ago
    Search engines also seem to have trouble finding it. It turns up only when I enter "dell xps 13 developer edition": https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/new-xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Several of their business PCs support linux. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem...
contingencies 5y ago
No longer available and was only ever limited distribution AFAIK. Also, their hardware has a habit of dying suddenly. For non-free vendors I recommend replacing Windows on current-era Lenovo laptop hardware, AFAIK so far everything just works out of the box.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  ...You can order it right now on their site. Admittedly, it takes digging through their similar but old listings. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/ctox139w10p2c3000u https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...

fsflover 5y ago

The difference is, most of System76’s laptops are barebones models from Clevo, whereas Purism designs its own laptops.

istingray 5y ago
As a new System76 customer, I like their stepwise approach. It tells me they're thinking long term and not rushing. That's what I want to support is a longterm open hardware+software industry. My understanding is they've started selling their own desktop models after selling white-labeled machines in the past. And that with laptops they are quite involved in the design process and are inching towards selling their own custom laptops. If Purism fails it will likely be because they did too much from scratch. Taking on hardware and software all at once is a recipe for disaster. It's super expensive.
- 3r8Oltr0ziouVDM 5y ago
  Keep in mind that both Purism and System76 still use proprietary CPUs (at least) so their machines are not completely open. There is a backdoor in every Intel and AMD chip that has full control over your computer. If you want 100% open hardware, there is https://www.raptorcs.com/ https://www.raptorcs.com/.
  - Klonoar 5y ago
    I believe both these companies go to lengths to disable Intel ME & co (where possible). Raptor is a cool option if you have the money and want a desktop approach, but if you're after a laptop you're ultimately playing the game of "how much can I deal with binary blobs and proprietary bits". Hell, for Purism's laptops it's not uncommon for people to shove in a different wifi card to get modern speeds - the card they use is used for being able to run with only open source drivers, which are old at this point.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Commercial_ME_disablement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Commer....