13 ms·

This is true. But given the already high baseline immunity for previously infected people, the messaging for them should be somewhere closer to “you can get the

This is true. But given the already high baseline immunity for previously infected people, the messaging for them should be somewhere closer to “you can get the vaccine if you want” rather than “you must get the vaccine otherwise you are causing the pandemic”.

munk-a 5y ago
I don't know - I consider getting vaccinated to be a matter of common courtesy to those you're going to be interacting with now. I don't feel like thanking folks for only kicking - and not murdering - the adorable puppy at this point. Those who have been advised not to get vaccinated due to immune issues or other medical reasons I completely get - but everyone else is basically saying "I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you." The vaccines work, get it. My dad has survived three bouts with different forms of cancer - he's healthy and could be around for a long time. Please don't let your pride put his life in danger.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >"I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you." People who don't get vaccinated generally say it's because they don't trust the government. Probably because the government has proven time again to be untrustworthy. It's not just right wingers like the news is insinuating (another untrustworthy group), but all sides of the political spectrum and all demographics have people who are afraid to get vaccinated. No amount of scolding from you will change their mind, and COVID is probably here to stay, so you should adapt to that truth. As to my motivations, I'm fully vaccinated.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > so you should adapt to that truth. And they should adapt to the truth that as long as there are COVID outbreaks, there are going to be epidemic adaptations. And that as long as they are the cause of those adaptations, public sentiment will increasingly shift towards making those adaptations targeted against anti-vaxxers. One of those adaptations should be getting COVID patients out of hospitals, where they are infecting other people, disrupting ER services and scheduled surgeries, and into field hospitals. Every bed that is currently going to deal with a trivially preventable disease is multiple life-saving surgeries that aren't getting done. It would be nice if we could end this year with a working medical system. If people want to free-load, that's fine, but we shouldn't be throwing scheduled passengers off the plane to make room for them.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- incrudible 5y ago
  The first principle for vaccines to be administered ethically is that the benefit must be outweigh the risk. As trials have not completed and more information on vaccine side-effects is yet to be accumulated, this risk/benefit can be assessed only speculatively. For instance, this[1] study suggests that the risk of Myocarditis from COVID in young men is six times higher from an infection than from a vaccination. If we assume a gratuitous infection risk of 100%, this may sound like a reasonable benefit. If we however consider that actual COVID infections may be undercounted by a factor of 10[2], the benefit turns negative. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248946 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - strenholme 5y ago
    What the linked study [1] is saying is that unvaccinated people who get COVID-19 are even more likely to get Myocarditis than vaccinated people; it counters the allegation that people should not get vaccinated because of the risk of Myocarditis. Even if the vaccine increased the risk (it doesn’t), the risk of COVID-19 is orders of magnitude higher than the risk of the Myocarditis heart condition. There have been, from the total of 12,910,312 18-24 year-old people vaccinated, [2] about 229 cases of this rare heart disease (and, in almost all cases, the person was discharged from the hospital the same day with a clean bill of health) That means the vaccine has under a 0.002% chance of causing a very rare but not fatal heart condition. [3] COVID-19, on the other hand, has an overall 1.66% chance of killing someone (38,043,754 cases, 629,644 deaths). [4] I would rather take a 0.002% non-fatal risk than a 1.66% fatal risk. Sources: [1] i.e. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... “Young males infected with the virus are up 6 times more likely to develop myocarditis as those who have received the vaccine.” [2] https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/ https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-st... [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-stronger-covid-vaccine-link-heart-issue-cdc-says-n1270339 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-st... [4] https://samiam.org/COVID-19/ https://samiam.org/COVID-19/ derived from https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data/ https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data/
ceejayoz 5y ago
A significant confounding issue is a lot of people think they're "previously infected" but aren't, as the symptoms of COVID and the symptoms of flus and colds overlap, especially in milder cases. "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify, too. My son had a nasty case of pneumonia early in 2020; we thought afterwards it might've been a COVID case. Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn't. That's why advice is still "go get the vaccine".
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  ‘ "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify’ ‘Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn’t.’ I’m confused, can’t we antibody test people who think they had it?
  - peterbell_nyc 5y ago
    Yes, we can. But from a public health perspective, many people will just short circuit to "I had the sniffles some time in the last year so I got covid. So I don't need to find a site, fill out a form, wait in line and potentially lose a couple of days of work due to symptoms. Plus, you know, those microchips - it could be true :)" One of the biggest challenges we have is picking public health messaging for a broad audience that does the most good and the least harm. I'm still frustrated that the decision was made early on in the pandemic to say that masks don't work. And the convoluted reasoning that if you didn't have a perfect fit or if you touched the outside of the mask that was somehow more dangerous than being unmasked in a location with a sufficiently high viral load for the other stuff to matter. I also understand that the concern was that if we told the truth (masks do matter, and respirators are even better, but please don't buy them to protect yourself and your family because we didn't stockpile enough, so we need them for the doctors and nurses) we'd have had even more supply challenges.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > I’m confused, can’t we antibody test people who think they had it? Can we? Sure. Is it a massive waste of resources versus "just get the fucking vaccine"? Also sure.

munk-a 5y ago

I don't know - I consider getting vaccinated to be a matter of common courtesy to those you're going to be interacting with now. I don't feel like thanking folks for only kicking - and not murdering - the adorable puppy at this point. Those who have been advised not to get vaccinated due to immune issues or other medical reasons I completely get - but everyone else is basically saying "I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you." The vaccines work, get it. My dad has survived three bouts with different forms of cancer - he's healthy and could be around for a long time. Please don't let your pride put his life in danger.

Clubber 5y ago
>"I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you." People who don't get vaccinated generally say it's because they don't trust the government. Probably because the government has proven time again to be untrustworthy. It's not just right wingers like the news is insinuating (another untrustworthy group), but all sides of the political spectrum and all demographics have people who are afraid to get vaccinated. No amount of scolding from you will change their mind, and COVID is probably here to stay, so you should adapt to that truth. As to my motivations, I'm fully vaccinated.
- vkou 5y ago
  > so you should adapt to that truth. And they should adapt to the truth that as long as there are COVID outbreaks, there are going to be epidemic adaptations. And that as long as they are the cause of those adaptations, public sentiment will increasingly shift towards making those adaptations targeted against anti-vaxxers. One of those adaptations should be getting COVID patients out of hospitals, where they are infecting other people, disrupting ER services and scheduled surgeries, and into field hospitals. Every bed that is currently going to deal with a trivially preventable disease is multiple life-saving surgeries that aren't getting done. It would be nice if we could end this year with a working medical system. If people want to free-load, that's fine, but we shouldn't be throwing scheduled passengers off the plane to make room for them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
incrudible 5y ago
The first principle for vaccines to be administered ethically is that the benefit must be outweigh the risk. As trials have not completed and more information on vaccine side-effects is yet to be accumulated, this risk/benefit can be assessed only speculatively. For instance, this[1] study suggests that the risk of Myocarditis from COVID in young men is six times higher from an infection than from a vaccination. If we assume a gratuitous infection risk of 100%, this may sound like a reasonable benefit. If we however consider that actual COVID infections may be undercounted by a factor of 10[2], the benefit turns negative. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248946 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- strenholme 5y ago
  What the linked study [1] is saying is that unvaccinated people who get COVID-19 are even more likely to get Myocarditis than vaccinated people; it counters the allegation that people should not get vaccinated because of the risk of Myocarditis. Even if the vaccine increased the risk (it doesn’t), the risk of COVID-19 is orders of magnitude higher than the risk of the Myocarditis heart condition. There have been, from the total of 12,910,312 18-24 year-old people vaccinated, [2] about 229 cases of this rare heart disease (and, in almost all cases, the person was discharged from the hospital the same day with a clean bill of health) That means the vaccine has under a 0.002% chance of causing a very rare but not fatal heart condition. [3] COVID-19, on the other hand, has an overall 1.66% chance of killing someone (38,043,754 cases, 629,644 deaths). [4] I would rather take a 0.002% non-fatal risk than a 1.66% fatal risk. Sources: [1] i.e. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... “Young males infected with the virus are up 6 times more likely to develop myocarditis as those who have received the vaccine.” [2] https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/ https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-st... [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-stronger-covid-vaccine-link-heart-issue-cdc-says-n1270339 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-st... [4] https://samiam.org/COVID-19/ https://samiam.org/COVID-19/ derived from https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data/ https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data/

ceejayoz 5y ago

A significant confounding issue is a lot of people think they're "previously infected" but aren't, as the symptoms of COVID and the symptoms of flus and colds overlap, especially in milder cases. "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify, too. My son had a nasty case of pneumonia early in 2020; we thought afterwards it might've been a COVID case. Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn't. That's why advice is still "go get the vaccine".

mensetmanusman 5y ago
‘ "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify’ ‘Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn’t.’ I’m confused, can’t we antibody test people who think they had it?
- peterbell_nyc 5y ago
  Yes, we can. But from a public health perspective, many people will just short circuit to "I had the sniffles some time in the last year so I got covid. So I don't need to find a site, fill out a form, wait in line and potentially lose a couple of days of work due to symptoms. Plus, you know, those microchips - it could be true :)" One of the biggest challenges we have is picking public health messaging for a broad audience that does the most good and the least harm. I'm still frustrated that the decision was made early on in the pandemic to say that masks don't work. And the convoluted reasoning that if you didn't have a perfect fit or if you touched the outside of the mask that was somehow more dangerous than being unmasked in a location with a sufficiently high viral load for the other stuff to matter. I also understand that the concern was that if we told the truth (masks do matter, and respirators are even better, but please don't buy them to protect yourself and your family because we didn't stockpile enough, so we need them for the doctors and nurses) we'd have had even more supply challenges.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > I’m confused, can’t we antibody test people who think they had it? Can we? Sure. Is it a massive waste of resources versus "just get the fucking vaccine"? Also sure.