5 ms·

the most incredible thing to me about Italian cruisine is the fact that the tomato is not even native to Italy.

progre 5y ago
Tomatoes have been grown in Italy since at least 1550, plenty of time to be firmly accepted in the food culture. Edit: Come to think about it, tomatoes in Italy have existed longer than Italy itself.
- dspillett 5y ago
  They'll be claiming fish & chips isn't an English dish next!
  - rat87 5y ago
    Fried fish was originally Spanish/Portuguese possibly brought by Jewish immigrants to the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescado_frito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescado_frito
    - dspillett 5y ago
      Aye, very few things we think as traditionally of one place actually originated there. Turns out I'd have liked the past Spanish fort as much as the more modern one works for me! (Specifically in the post above I was referring to the chip, on the basis that the potatoe "came" to England in a similar timeframe to the quote of the tomato beginning commonplace in Italy from.)
  - niij 5y ago
    Or Curry!
- kazen44 5y ago
  by about 400 years at that!. (if we take into concept the first foundation of the italian state, and not its predecessors. A common heritage of the italian peninsula is ofcourse far, far older).
lastofthemojito 5y ago
I think about that anytime someone says something like "American food is so unoriginal, everything good there is stolen from immigrants" ... well sure, we're all ancestrally from somewhere else, and we brought lots of food traditions with us ... why do people say that like it's an insult? But really the same goes for the whole world on a long enough time scale. Heck, Italy wasn't even a thing when the Medicis were enjoying their imported tomatoes.
- giomasce 5y ago
  This. No tradition or culture can claim to be purely from one place. Everything has mixed in the world by now. All of us are immigrants.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  It's about giving credit where credit is due. Failing to do so often and on an industrial scale quickly becomes cultural appropriation. In HN terms: it's like systematically violating FOSS licenses that require attribution. Also, about not butchering something and/or making false claims its originality.
  - lastofthemojito 5y ago
    That's an interesting comparison - I've never thought of cultural appropriation along the lines of FOSS licenses before (I guess because the rules for borrowing from other cultures are unwritten). I wonder what compliance should look like in this case - is it enough for the borrower to treat the borrowed dish with care and make an earnest attempt to create something that respects the culture of origin (E.g., don't make steak tikka masala)? Should there be a note on the menu "this dish is inspired by the traditional food X, from culture Y"?
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      Just like for books, music, software, movies: - if it's an exact copy, give attribution - if it's inspired-by but different, say it - if it's a new thing, don't give false attribution (e.g. with a misleading name) - if the origin is forgotten or unclear, don't claim ownership
AutumnCurtain 5y ago
Durum wheat was likewise introduced to Italy in the 9th or 10th century AD, if I recall correctly as a consequence of the Muslim conquest of Sicily. Interesting to think that those iconic elements of their modern cuisine were introduced "recently" in the historical sense.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Lots of other European countries also radically changed their diets, some as recently as 300 years ago
55555 5y ago
Yup, really interesting. Chile's aren't native to India or Thailand either.
julienchastang 5y ago
There are many examples of that. Hungarian paprika made of peppers that are originally from the Americas. Same for Indian cuisine. Read The Columbian Exchange: Biological and Cultural Consequences of 1492 by Alfred W. Crosby My understanding is that pizza maybe originally from Italy, but it was popularized in the US by Italian-Americans. When American tourists started traveling in Europe in large numbers, they wanted "authentic" pizza, so Italians obliged by serving them a reinvented pizza.
- diego_moita 5y ago
  > but it was popularized in the US by Italian-Americans. Sweden and Southern Germany had pizzerias before WWII. Same for São Paulo (Brazil) and Buenos Aires (Argentina), both cities with a big Italian immigration on the 19th century. The town of Nice, in southern France, has pissaladiere as a local dish since the end of 19th century. And then there are the hundreds of different versions of flat-breads from Asia to North Africa.
  - julienchastang 5y ago
    That may be true, but no one spends like American tourists :-) asking for local "authentic" experiences. Also, I love pissaladière and have made it many times.
scheme271 5y ago
Isn't that true of a lot of old world cuisines? Potatoes, tomatoes, and chiles are native to the Americas so a lot of it didn't get introduced to Europe and Asia until the 1600/1700s.
klyrs 5y ago
Nor potatoes (gnocchi), corn (polenta), zucchini, prickly pear, peppers... I think peppers are the one that blows my mind the most. They're centered in quite a few food cultures, and I got quite far into life not realizing how relatively new that phenomenon is.
- detritus 5y ago
  Aye, chillies and peppers generally are the one that blows my tiny little mind - to think of all the cultures, spanning right around the world, almost back to the Americas again - whose cuisine relies so much on those delicious things.
- analog31 5y ago
  Nor pasta. So what did Italians actually eat? I've always wondered.
  - synthc 5y ago
    There are records of pasta being prepared in Italy from back to the first century AD
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Come to think of it... those were Romans, not Italians. Italy didn't exist until its unification in 1861, all these new world veggies are entirely "traditional Italian"...
  - synthc 5y ago
    I recall that when I was in Chiavenna (in the north, bordering Switzerland) there is a valley with a large chestnut forest. Chestnuts used to be a staple in that region. You can also read up on the ancient roman diet, there are many sources on that.
  - morpheos137 5y ago
    Fish, bread, olive oil, beef, pork, wine, basically the ancient roman diet continued until the crusades at least.
bouk 5y ago
Basically none of the vegetables we eat are 'native' but have been bred for centuries to be what they are today
timeon 5y ago
Interesting thing is that is quite big range of foods. Otherwise it is quite common to have just one 'national dish' that is originated elsewhere (like Hungarian Goulash) or use relatively new ingredients (like potatoes in Slovak Halusky).

Tomatoes have been grown in Italy since at least 1550, plenty of time to be firmly accepted in the food culture. Edit: Come to think about it, tomatoes in Italy have existed longer than Italy itself.

dspillett 5y ago
They'll be claiming fish & chips isn't an English dish next!
- rat87 5y ago
  Fried fish was originally Spanish/Portuguese possibly brought by Jewish immigrants to the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescado_frito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescado_frito
  - dspillett 5y ago
    Aye, very few things we think as traditionally of one place actually originated there. Turns out I'd have liked the past Spanish fort as much as the more modern one works for me! (Specifically in the post above I was referring to the chip, on the basis that the potatoe "came" to England in a similar timeframe to the quote of the tomato beginning commonplace in Italy from.)
- niij 5y ago
  Or Curry!
kazen44 5y ago
by about 400 years at that!. (if we take into concept the first foundation of the italian state, and not its predecessors. A common heritage of the italian peninsula is ofcourse far, far older).

lastofthemojito 5y ago

I think about that anytime someone says something like "American food is so unoriginal, everything good there is stolen from immigrants" ... well sure, we're all ancestrally from somewhere else, and we brought lots of food traditions with us ... why do people say that like it's an insult? But really the same goes for the whole world on a long enough time scale. Heck, Italy wasn't even a thing when the Medicis were enjoying their imported tomatoes.

giomasce 5y ago
This. No tradition or culture can claim to be purely from one place. Everything has mixed in the world by now. All of us are immigrants.
goodpoint 5y ago
It's about giving credit where credit is due. Failing to do so often and on an industrial scale quickly becomes cultural appropriation. In HN terms: it's like systematically violating FOSS licenses that require attribution. Also, about not butchering something and/or making false claims its originality.
- lastofthemojito 5y ago
  That's an interesting comparison - I've never thought of cultural appropriation along the lines of FOSS licenses before (I guess because the rules for borrowing from other cultures are unwritten). I wonder what compliance should look like in this case - is it enough for the borrower to treat the borrowed dish with care and make an earnest attempt to create something that respects the culture of origin (E.g., don't make steak tikka masala)? Should there be a note on the menu "this dish is inspired by the traditional food X, from culture Y"?
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Just like for books, music, software, movies: - if it's an exact copy, give attribution - if it's inspired-by but different, say it - if it's a new thing, don't give false attribution (e.g. with a misleading name) - if the origin is forgotten or unclear, don't claim ownership

AutumnCurtain 5y ago

Durum wheat was likewise introduced to Italy in the 9th or 10th century AD, if I recall correctly as a consequence of the Muslim conquest of Sicily. Interesting to think that those iconic elements of their modern cuisine were introduced "recently" in the historical sense.

collaborative 5y ago
Lots of other European countries also radically changed their diets, some as recently as 300 years ago

55555 5y ago

Yup, really interesting. Chile's aren't native to India or Thailand either.

julienchastang 5y ago

There are many examples of that. Hungarian paprika made of peppers that are originally from the Americas. Same for Indian cuisine. Read The Columbian Exchange: Biological and Cultural Consequences of 1492 by Alfred W. Crosby My understanding is that pizza maybe originally from Italy, but it was popularized in the US by Italian-Americans. When American tourists started traveling in Europe in large numbers, they wanted "authentic" pizza, so Italians obliged by serving them a reinvented pizza.

diego_moita 5y ago
> but it was popularized in the US by Italian-Americans. Sweden and Southern Germany had pizzerias before WWII. Same for São Paulo (Brazil) and Buenos Aires (Argentina), both cities with a big Italian immigration on the 19th century. The town of Nice, in southern France, has pissaladiere as a local dish since the end of 19th century. And then there are the hundreds of different versions of flat-breads from Asia to North Africa.
- julienchastang 5y ago
  That may be true, but no one spends like American tourists :-) asking for local "authentic" experiences. Also, I love pissaladière and have made it many times.

scheme271 5y ago

Isn't that true of a lot of old world cuisines? Potatoes, tomatoes, and chiles are native to the Americas so a lot of it didn't get introduced to Europe and Asia until the 1600/1700s.

klyrs 5y ago

Nor potatoes (gnocchi), corn (polenta), zucchini, prickly pear, peppers... I think peppers are the one that blows my mind the most. They're centered in quite a few food cultures, and I got quite far into life not realizing how relatively new that phenomenon is.

detritus 5y ago
Aye, chillies and peppers generally are the one that blows my tiny little mind - to think of all the cultures, spanning right around the world, almost back to the Americas again - whose cuisine relies so much on those delicious things.
analog31 5y ago
Nor pasta. So what did Italians actually eat? I've always wondered.
- synthc 5y ago
  There are records of pasta being prepared in Italy from back to the first century AD
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Come to think of it... those were Romans, not Italians. Italy didn't exist until its unification in 1861, all these new world veggies are entirely "traditional Italian"...
- synthc 5y ago
  I recall that when I was in Chiavenna (in the north, bordering Switzerland) there is a valley with a large chestnut forest. Chestnuts used to be a staple in that region. You can also read up on the ancient roman diet, there are many sources on that.
- morpheos137 5y ago
  Fish, bread, olive oil, beef, pork, wine, basically the ancient roman diet continued until the crusades at least.

bouk 5y ago

Basically none of the vegetables we eat are 'native' but have been bred for centuries to be what they are today

timeon 5y ago

Interesting thing is that is quite big range of foods. Otherwise it is quite common to have just one 'national dish' that is originated elsewhere (like Hungarian Goulash) or use relatively new ingredients (like potatoes in Slovak Halusky).