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> Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as ne

> Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it. These really aren't very similar. Big Tobacco's lies were the only thing propping up the tobacco industry. As soon as the truth became clear, their industry was absolutely crushed. The truth about climate change has been clear for decades, but unlike the situation with tobacco, the demand for Oil & Gas keeps on growing[0]. This is because, unlike tobacco, Oil & Gas is absolutely indispensable--especially for developing countries. Lying about climate change was a terrible thing, and it cost us precious time. But we still need them to keep the lights on, and pretending that the act of producing Oil & Gas today--when it is literally a hard requirement to keep the lights on around the world-- is somehow pernicious, is just silliness. The world is stressful enough without all the outrage theatre. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels

deleted 5y ago
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ggggtez 5y ago
Arguably the only thing propping up the oil industry is lies as well... If it wasn't for the big lie that Climate Change isn't real, then the USA would have never left the Paris Accord, and would have much stricter Climate goals already in place. So yes, lies and lobbying are propping up big oil.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  The US is still on a path to meet the goals set out in the Paris Agreement, so I'm not sure how this makes any sense. source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-agreement-united-states-commitment/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-agreement-united-states-c...
fallingknife 5y ago
> As soon as the truth became clear, their industry was absolutely crushed Gonna have to disagree with you on that one... https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/PM https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/PM
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  Seriously, not sure what they're talking about. Many tobacco companies have exceptional dividends. If they're going to continue to supply their wares, I want a little piece of the pie in my portfolio.
  - marcusverus 5y ago
    Yeah, after looking at some data, my characterization of the tobacco companies getting crushed is probably not accurate. I knew that tobacco use has been in stark decline, but the data show that it has been a steady decline over many decades (down ~60% over ~60 years), and not a stark, immediately like I had (mis)remembered. The specific impact of the big tobacco trials on the tobacco industry at large is still a mystery to me, though. I'd still like to see some data for the entire domestic tobacco industry's revenues (I searched, but I did not find anything) going back to the ~50s, so that we could see the impact of the very public lawsuits, the big settlement, and the implementation of warning labels. The Phillip Morris stock ticker you linked isn't very helpful in determining that impact, as it only goes back to 2008.
betterunix2 5y ago
"a hard requirement to keep the lights on around the world" That is a bad example of what we need the petroleum industry for. A combination of wind, solar, hydroelectric, and nuclear power could meet the world's electricity needs for many decades to come, especially as we have become so much more efficient with our electricity use compared to previous decades. The very link you provided states, "Globally, fossil fuels account for a much smaller share of electricity production than the energy system as a whole." The bigger challenges are transportation (especially airplanes and cargo ships) and the chemicals industry, where oil is much harder to replace. Electric cars and trains are doable with sufficient infrastructure investment, but for cargo ships the only real alternative right now is nuclear power, and I am not sure we have any viable alternatives for air transport as we know it.

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ggggtez 5y ago

Arguably the only thing propping up the oil industry is lies as well... If it wasn't for the big lie that Climate Change isn't real, then the USA would have never left the Paris Accord, and would have much stricter Climate goals already in place. So yes, lies and lobbying are propping up big oil.

marcusverus 5y ago
The US is still on a path to meet the goals set out in the Paris Agreement, so I'm not sure how this makes any sense. source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-agreement-united-states-commitment/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-agreement-united-states-c...

fallingknife 5y ago

> As soon as the truth became clear, their industry was absolutely crushed Gonna have to disagree with you on that one... https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/PM https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/PM

JohnWhigham 5y ago
Seriously, not sure what they're talking about. Many tobacco companies have exceptional dividends. If they're going to continue to supply their wares, I want a little piece of the pie in my portfolio.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  Yeah, after looking at some data, my characterization of the tobacco companies getting crushed is probably not accurate. I knew that tobacco use has been in stark decline, but the data show that it has been a steady decline over many decades (down ~60% over ~60 years), and not a stark, immediately like I had (mis)remembered. The specific impact of the big tobacco trials on the tobacco industry at large is still a mystery to me, though. I'd still like to see some data for the entire domestic tobacco industry's revenues (I searched, but I did not find anything) going back to the ~50s, so that we could see the impact of the very public lawsuits, the big settlement, and the implementation of warning labels. The Phillip Morris stock ticker you linked isn't very helpful in determining that impact, as it only goes back to 2008.

betterunix2 5y ago

"a hard requirement to keep the lights on around the world" That is a bad example of what we need the petroleum industry for. A combination of wind, solar, hydroelectric, and nuclear power could meet the world's electricity needs for many decades to come, especially as we have become so much more efficient with our electricity use compared to previous decades. The very link you provided states, "Globally, fossil fuels account for a much smaller share of electricity production than the energy system as a whole." The bigger challenges are transportation (especially airplanes and cargo ships) and the chemicals industry, where oil is much harder to replace. Electric cars and trains are doable with sufficient infrastructure investment, but for cargo ships the only real alternative right now is nuclear power, and I am not sure we have any viable alternatives for air transport as we know it.