4 ms·

Pandora’s box has been opened. There will always be another coin to pump and dump and thus there will always be another coin to mine.

skohan 5y ago
Don't you think it could be aggressively regulated against? I doubt it could be completely stopped, but demand could be sharply reduced if using and mining cryptocurrency carried sharp legal penalties.
- quantumBerry 5y ago
  It could, but governments have a hard enough time sharply reducing drug use, and that has something tangible to search for and find. Trying to find some bits in the ether or even worse guess whether someone is memorizing a seed phrase is nigh impossible to prove or extinguish. Mining will be carried out wherever someone could get away with it, which is basically any western country where it is legal and any 3rd world country with internet access and power. It would be like trying to stomp out coronavirus in the entire world -- when you apply the "vaccine" somewhere, the reservoir just lives somewhere else. The issue is while the legal demand will drop, the illegal demand will remain, which is the only one you're trying to stomp out. As a deflationary currency much value will be lost, but it will retain pricely enough market cap to sustain the black market.
  - spdionis 5y ago
    I'd assume some of these massive energy-hungry mining facilities would be fairly hard to hide.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      Bitcoin's survival is not predicated on centralized mining facilities.
      - stouset 5y ago
        It is if you intend to avoid 51% attacks. If mining goes down as hardware capabilities go up, it’s only a matter of time before somebody fires up a mining operation for a few days to outcompete the rest.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        >>Bitcoin's survival is not predicated on centralized mining facilities >It is if you intend to avoid 51% attacks. This is contradictory. If centralized mining doesn't exist, then by definition a 51% attack by centralized mining doesn't happen.
        stouset 5y ago
        It doesn't right up until the moment that somebody realizes the reward of profit is worth the risk of operating a mining operation capable of pulling off a 51% attack.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        I said Bitcoin's survival was not predicated on centralized mining facility. You seem to be agreeing with me, because your scenario is one of a 51% attack predicated on a large centralized mining facility. You are overlooking the number of actors capable of pulling off illegal mining, and the difficulty in coordinating all of them. You are acknowledging even under clamp downs, mining will continue. If you think about 30 seconds further, you'll realize it will be widespread and it is likely not just one clever 51% attack hopeful will come up with the bright idea of running an underground mining operation. Prisoner's dillema keeps all the decentralized nodes from colluding (risk losing your mining reward against the hope everyone will stick to the deal and hash a dirty chain). Prisoner's dillema acts the same way against more centralized groups so long as no one of them controls a large portion of the available hashrate. Basically your statement is "people will pull off scaled mining operations even if illegal, and bitcoins demise is predicated on centralized mining operations" and I agree with you 100%. If your argument is that Bitcoin is susceptible to a 51% attack, the answer is you are correct and you always have been. It is built into the protocol.

skohan 5y ago

Don't you think it could be aggressively regulated against? I doubt it could be completely stopped, but demand could be sharply reduced if using and mining cryptocurrency carried sharp legal penalties.

quantumBerry 5y ago
It could, but governments have a hard enough time sharply reducing drug use, and that has something tangible to search for and find. Trying to find some bits in the ether or even worse guess whether someone is memorizing a seed phrase is nigh impossible to prove or extinguish. Mining will be carried out wherever someone could get away with it, which is basically any western country where it is legal and any 3rd world country with internet access and power. It would be like trying to stomp out coronavirus in the entire world -- when you apply the "vaccine" somewhere, the reservoir just lives somewhere else. The issue is while the legal demand will drop, the illegal demand will remain, which is the only one you're trying to stomp out. As a deflationary currency much value will be lost, but it will retain pricely enough market cap to sustain the black market.
- spdionis 5y ago
  I'd assume some of these massive energy-hungry mining facilities would be fairly hard to hide.
  - quantumBerry 5y ago
    Bitcoin's survival is not predicated on centralized mining facilities.
    - stouset 5y ago
      It is if you intend to avoid 51% attacks. If mining goes down as hardware capabilities go up, it’s only a matter of time before somebody fires up a mining operation for a few days to outcompete the rest.
      - quantumBerry 5y ago
        >>Bitcoin's survival is not predicated on centralized mining facilities >It is if you intend to avoid 51% attacks. This is contradictory. If centralized mining doesn't exist, then by definition a 51% attack by centralized mining doesn't happen.
        stouset 5y ago
        It doesn't right up until the moment that somebody realizes the reward of profit is worth the risk of operating a mining operation capable of pulling off a 51% attack.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        I said Bitcoin's survival was not predicated on centralized mining facility. You seem to be agreeing with me, because your scenario is one of a 51% attack predicated on a large centralized mining facility. You are overlooking the number of actors capable of pulling off illegal mining, and the difficulty in coordinating all of them. You are acknowledging even under clamp downs, mining will continue. If you think about 30 seconds further, you'll realize it will be widespread and it is likely not just one clever 51% attack hopeful will come up with the bright idea of running an underground mining operation. Prisoner's dillema keeps all the decentralized nodes from colluding (risk losing your mining reward against the hope everyone will stick to the deal and hash a dirty chain). Prisoner's dillema acts the same way against more centralized groups so long as no one of them controls a large portion of the available hashrate. Basically your statement is "people will pull off scaled mining operations even if illegal, and bitcoins demise is predicated on centralized mining operations" and I agree with you 100%. If your argument is that Bitcoin is susceptible to a 51% attack, the answer is you are correct and you always have been. It is built into the protocol.