5 ms·

I think that’s a result of being connected to the web not a native application vs web app thing. Nothing is stopping a native app from sending telemetry to a se

I think that’s a result of being connected to the web not a native application vs web app thing. Nothing is stopping a native app from sending telemetry to a server for every action you take.

pjmlp 5y ago
Yeah, except Web apps use telemetry in every single request, to profit for marketing dashboards. Spend some time learning about marketing solutions. So native apps may use, Web uses it all the time.
- ptx 5y ago
  Native apps have access to all your local data, unlike web apps. Web apps can't gather telemetry on things they can't access.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    On Web apps your data lives on someone's else computer, including basic stuff like credit card information. Every horizontal line on the network tab in developer tools is yet another piece of telemetry information. Native apps have access to whatever user they run under. Again whatever native apps can do, web apps do all the time.
    - yoavm 5y ago
      Here's an example: Discord app reads all the processes running on the machine. Discord webapp can't. Telemetry is probably the same. Another example: Microsoft Word can include a bug that makes opening a doc file run whatever command, including wiping the system. Google Docs can't do it. It's much simpler to see telemetry in a web app - just open the Network tab. The fact that it's harder to do with a desktop app does not at all means it isn't there. Give wireshark a spin.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Google docs can read all your data that happens to be stored on their server. You don't get it, yes desktop apps can do telemetry, and many do. Web applications not only have all your data, every page interaction is fed into marketing engines regardless of your opinion on that.
        yoavm 5y ago
        But web applications don't have all my data. I gave you an example just above - Discord web app can't see what other programs I have running. Discord Desktop can. Google docs can read all my data on Google Docs (shocking), but Microsoft Word could be stealing my cookies from my browser and accessing my Google Docs, my iCloud and anything else too. You keep making these bombastic statements with no data behind. Not all web applications store every page interaction into a marketing engine. For example, I have a web application - as you navigate no additional network requests are sent (it's SPA!), and anyway I don't really have access to those the server logs because they're hosted by some Netlify-like service. See? Web application without you data that doesn't feed your interactions into a marketing engine. Some web apps track, some desktop apps track. But clearly and without any doubt an executable running in your operating system can potential do much more than a web app you open with your up-to-date browser. An executable can even... open a web app!
        pjmlp 5y ago
        They have all the data they can extract from each HTTP request, plus 100% of all data stored on their end. Discord web app has a track record from everyone you ever spoke with, where you where when each sentence was written, who the people you talk to were. All Web apps track, there are no exceptions, unless you are talking about some hobby stuf written by yourself.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      > Again whatever native apps can do, web apps do all the time. This isn't true. Yes, web apps have tons of telemetry, and every web request is logged server-side. But native apps do MORE: - Native apps can look at what processes you're running. Web apps can't. - Native apps can look at what software is installed. Web apps can't. - Native apps can accurately determine exactly what operating system and browser you're using, while web apps either have to rely on a User-agent (which is trivially spoofed), or perform fingerprinting in order to come up with a guess. - Native apps can see exactly what hardware you have. Web apps can't. - Native apps have read/write access to every file on your system, subject to user-level permissions. Web apps require explicit selection from the user for file access. A native app can easily send your /etc/passwd file to a remote server, and can enumerate the local users. -- Look, nobody is disputing that web apps have tons of telemetry, yet you keep responding as if that's what people are arguing with you about. What we're disputing is the exact statement I quoted. You implied that the telemetry of a native app is a subset or equal to the telemetry of a web app, and that's just plain false. It's very much the other way around. The telemetry of a web app is far less than a native app.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > - Native apps can accurately determine exactly what operating system and browser you're using, while web apps either have to rely on a User-agent (which is trivially spoofed), or perform fingerprinting in order to come up with a guess A native app may know which browsers I have installed, but how would it know which of the umpteen ones I have I actually regularly use (if I don't do so while running the app)? The Web app, OTOH, is running in that browser, so yeah, of course it has a better chance of knowing that.
        Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        True, but to be fair, most users (Windows users, at least) don't have more than 2 browsers installed (Edge and either Firefox or Chrome, and it's likely a safe bet that if FF or Chrome are installed, that's their preferred browser). *nix users likely only have 1. Your "umpteen" browsers is very much an edge case.
        5y ago
EvanAnderson 5y ago
If you can't self-host a web-based application you have no capability of ever using it without third-party tracking It's at least possible (albeit potentially difficult) for a native application, should it have have such tracking, to have that tracking removed. Software "crackers" have shown, time and again, that so long as the code is present on a machine it can be made to run in whatever manner is desired.

I think that’s a result of being connected to the web not a native application vs web app thing. Nothing is stopping a native app from sending telemetry to a server for every action you take.

pjmlp 5y ago

Yeah, except Web apps use telemetry in every single request, to profit for marketing dashboards. Spend some time learning about marketing solutions. So native apps may use, Web uses it all the time.

ptx 5y ago
Native apps have access to all your local data, unlike web apps. Web apps can't gather telemetry on things they can't access.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  On Web apps your data lives on someone's else computer, including basic stuff like credit card information. Every horizontal line on the network tab in developer tools is yet another piece of telemetry information. Native apps have access to whatever user they run under. Again whatever native apps can do, web apps do all the time.
  - yoavm 5y ago
    Here's an example: Discord app reads all the processes running on the machine. Discord webapp can't. Telemetry is probably the same. Another example: Microsoft Word can include a bug that makes opening a doc file run whatever command, including wiping the system. Google Docs can't do it. It's much simpler to see telemetry in a web app - just open the Network tab. The fact that it's harder to do with a desktop app does not at all means it isn't there. Give wireshark a spin.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Google docs can read all your data that happens to be stored on their server. You don't get it, yes desktop apps can do telemetry, and many do. Web applications not only have all your data, every page interaction is fed into marketing engines regardless of your opinion on that.
      - yoavm 5y ago
        But web applications don't have all my data. I gave you an example just above - Discord web app can't see what other programs I have running. Discord Desktop can. Google docs can read all my data on Google Docs (shocking), but Microsoft Word could be stealing my cookies from my browser and accessing my Google Docs, my iCloud and anything else too. You keep making these bombastic statements with no data behind. Not all web applications store every page interaction into a marketing engine. For example, I have a web application - as you navigate no additional network requests are sent (it's SPA!), and anyway I don't really have access to those the server logs because they're hosted by some Netlify-like service. See? Web application without you data that doesn't feed your interactions into a marketing engine. Some web apps track, some desktop apps track. But clearly and without any doubt an executable running in your operating system can potential do much more than a web app you open with your up-to-date browser. An executable can even... open a web app!
        pjmlp 5y ago
        They have all the data they can extract from each HTTP request, plus 100% of all data stored on their end. Discord web app has a track record from everyone you ever spoke with, where you where when each sentence was written, who the people you talk to were. All Web apps track, there are no exceptions, unless you are talking about some hobby stuf written by yourself.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    > Again whatever native apps can do, web apps do all the time. This isn't true. Yes, web apps have tons of telemetry, and every web request is logged server-side. But native apps do MORE: - Native apps can look at what processes you're running. Web apps can't. - Native apps can look at what software is installed. Web apps can't. - Native apps can accurately determine exactly what operating system and browser you're using, while web apps either have to rely on a User-agent (which is trivially spoofed), or perform fingerprinting in order to come up with a guess. - Native apps can see exactly what hardware you have. Web apps can't. - Native apps have read/write access to every file on your system, subject to user-level permissions. Web apps require explicit selection from the user for file access. A native app can easily send your /etc/passwd file to a remote server, and can enumerate the local users. -- Look, nobody is disputing that web apps have tons of telemetry, yet you keep responding as if that's what people are arguing with you about. What we're disputing is the exact statement I quoted. You implied that the telemetry of a native app is a subset or equal to the telemetry of a web app, and that's just plain false. It's very much the other way around. The telemetry of a web app is far less than a native app.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > - Native apps can accurately determine exactly what operating system and browser you're using, while web apps either have to rely on a User-agent (which is trivially spoofed), or perform fingerprinting in order to come up with a guess A native app may know which browsers I have installed, but how would it know which of the umpteen ones I have I actually regularly use (if I don't do so while running the app)? The Web app, OTOH, is running in that browser, so yeah, of course it has a better chance of knowing that.
      - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        True, but to be fair, most users (Windows users, at least) don't have more than 2 browsers installed (Edge and either Firefox or Chrome, and it's likely a safe bet that if FF or Chrome are installed, that's their preferred browser). *nix users likely only have 1. Your "umpteen" browsers is very much an edge case.
      - 5y ago

EvanAnderson 5y ago

If you can't self-host a web-based application you have no capability of ever using it without third-party tracking It's at least possible (albeit potentially difficult) for a native application, should it have have such tracking, to have that tracking removed. Software "crackers" have shown, time and again, that so long as the code is present on a machine it can be made to run in whatever manner is desired.