9 ms·

May be risking a lot of downvotes, but I really want to work for somewhere that cares about a11y for very selfish reasons - I want to use semantic html and not

May be risking a lot of downvotes, but I really want to work for somewhere that cares about a11y for very selfish reasons - I want to use semantic html and not have to do stupid shit like using a package that re-implements the select element with divs

atoav 5y ago
Well that is what html should be used for. I do freakishly experimental webdesign at times (like for designer portfolios, where freakishly experimental webdesign is kinda part of the thing), but for everything where it is much more about the info and the content I will bend over backwards to use semantic html (and even with those freakish sites I will try). If you never looked at your website via lynx or used a screenreader I highly encourage it. It will give you a different perspective on things.
petepete 5y ago
I work with the GOV.UK Design System and everything's geared towards making services accessible. Your government (or health service) might have their own. https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/
- dmitriid 5y ago
  You guys are the best people. I can't express the depth of respect for you and the work you're doing.
  - petepete 5y ago
    I don't want to take credit for the work the Design System team does (they're awesome and supremely dedicated), I stand on their shoulders.
- rablackburn 5y ago
  Australia just cancelled our equivalent :( It’s been open-sourced and forked here if people would like to help keep it alive: https://designsystemau.org/ https://designsystemau.org/
- CitrusFruits 5y ago
  The US has one as well. Similarly, it has a key focus on accessibility. https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/
Symbiote 5y ago
> a11y ...which the text-to-speech reader probably pronounces as "ay eleven why".
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Just tested with MacOS's VoiceOver utility. Yup, it's "ay eleven why"
- MonadIsPronad 5y ago
  That's how I pronounce it in my head, too, but I still know what it means. All is well here.
  - another-dave 5y ago
    It's an abbreviation for accessibility (because there's 11 letters between 'a' and 'y' in the word.) Similar to i18n and l10n for internationalisation and localisation. Interestingly unlike w3c, so it's not standing for aaaaaaaaaaay :)
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      My point was that it's inaccessible: "accessibility", "internationalization" and "localization" are clear to everyone, but "a11y", "i18n" and "l10n" are not at all obvious even to native English speakers, and especially those using screen readers.
      - bspammer 5y ago
        I've never understood why these shortenings are so common. Is it just to avoid the mental load of having to remember how to spell long words? Isn't the mental load of having to remember which number goes with which word worse?
        somehnacct3757 5y ago
        Same reason people use contractions. It's faster and conveys equivalent meaning. A11y is probably the easiest one to remember because it looks like ally. Which is what you're being by worrying about accessibility when you yourself don't rely on the standards.
deergomoo 5y ago
It's a shame the UI elements built into HTML are so lacking, which I think is what ultimately drives people do things like this. Look at <select multiple> for example—the browser built-in is borderline unusable. Anything that requires combining a click with the shift and ctrl/cmd keys is not going to go down well with the average user. Same goes for <select>s that need more advanced behaviour like filtering. There's <datalist>, but it's incredibly basic and pretty useless for most cases you'd want that sort of input. The web is an app platform whether we like it or not, and I'd like to see a robust set of browser-native controls with mechanisms to customise styling and behaviour. It would improve accessibility, improve performance, reduce page sizes (because we wouldn't be re-implementing the whole world in JS), and it would at least go a little way to offsetting the slow erosion of quality desktop software that web technologies are bringing.
- int_19h 5y ago
  I suspect that one of the big reasons why native HTML widgets are not improved, is because everybody who needs something "fancy" (by web standards), just rolls their own.
- thristian 5y ago
  The browser select-multiple widget works like that because that's how it's worked in most desktop OSs since Macintosh System 1.0 in 1984 (at least). It's been simple and predictable and easily learned for decades, calling it "borderline unusable" is just hyperbole. Now, if you wanted to say that HTML's standard widgets should be allowed to reflect the platform-native look-and-feel (for example, adding a "selected" checkbox on touch-screens, or supporting long-press to select items, or whatever) instead of being tied to Windows 95 appearance and behaviour by backwards-compatibility concerns, then yeah, I'd agree with that.
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    It's "borderline unusable" because the vast majority of people who use computers probably wouldn't know how to select more than one item. There are no affordances and virtually nothing uses it any more. Even in the early desktop era when it was popular, many non-enthusiasts probably just didn't know how to use a UI control like that. It just didn't cause a problem because most people didn't use computers much. I would bet that most internet users today have never even used a UI where that control is popular.
NoGravitas 5y ago
Work for a government agency (in the US). We're required by law to meet accessibility standards, and at my workplace, we often do so through the path of least resistance – not using JavaScript to reimplement features that are already accessible and thereby take on the responsibility for implementing accessibility ourselves.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  > not using JavaScript to reimplement features that are already accessible Seriously, I've seen pages that create links by using a styled <span> tag with an onclick even that merely called a function that set document.location using a hard-coded value. Did developers forget that `<a href=....>` exists?
micromacrofoot 5y ago
You can care about accessibility and also re-implement the select element with divs.
beaconstudios 5y ago
Isn't that the whole point of ARIA roles? To enable you to create custom controls and interactions while marking them up for accessibility?

atoav 5y ago

Well that is what html should be used for. I do freakishly experimental webdesign at times (like for designer portfolios, where freakishly experimental webdesign is kinda part of the thing), but for everything where it is much more about the info and the content I will bend over backwards to use semantic html (and even with those freakish sites I will try). If you never looked at your website via lynx or used a screenreader I highly encourage it. It will give you a different perspective on things.

petepete 5y ago

I work with the GOV.UK Design System and everything's geared towards making services accessible. Your government (or health service) might have their own. https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/

dmitriid 5y ago
You guys are the best people. I can't express the depth of respect for you and the work you're doing.
- petepete 5y ago
  I don't want to take credit for the work the Design System team does (they're awesome and supremely dedicated), I stand on their shoulders.
rablackburn 5y ago
Australia just cancelled our equivalent :( It’s been open-sourced and forked here if people would like to help keep it alive: https://designsystemau.org/ https://designsystemau.org/
CitrusFruits 5y ago
The US has one as well. Similarly, it has a key focus on accessibility. https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/

Symbiote 5y ago

> a11y ...which the text-to-speech reader probably pronounces as "ay eleven why".

dmitriid 5y ago
Just tested with MacOS's VoiceOver utility. Yup, it's "ay eleven why"
MonadIsPronad 5y ago
That's how I pronounce it in my head, too, but I still know what it means. All is well here.
- another-dave 5y ago
  It's an abbreviation for accessibility (because there's 11 letters between 'a' and 'y' in the word.) Similar to i18n and l10n for internationalisation and localisation. Interestingly unlike w3c, so it's not standing for aaaaaaaaaaay :)
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    My point was that it's inaccessible: "accessibility", "internationalization" and "localization" are clear to everyone, but "a11y", "i18n" and "l10n" are not at all obvious even to native English speakers, and especially those using screen readers.
    - bspammer 5y ago
      I've never understood why these shortenings are so common. Is it just to avoid the mental load of having to remember how to spell long words? Isn't the mental load of having to remember which number goes with which word worse?
      - somehnacct3757 5y ago
        Same reason people use contractions. It's faster and conveys equivalent meaning. A11y is probably the easiest one to remember because it looks like ally. Which is what you're being by worrying about accessibility when you yourself don't rely on the standards.

deergomoo 5y ago

It's a shame the UI elements built into HTML are so lacking, which I think is what ultimately drives people do things like this. Look at <select multiple> for example—the browser built-in is borderline unusable. Anything that requires combining a click with the shift and ctrl/cmd keys is not going to go down well with the average user. Same goes for <select>s that need more advanced behaviour like filtering. There's <datalist>, but it's incredibly basic and pretty useless for most cases you'd want that sort of input. The web is an app platform whether we like it or not, and I'd like to see a robust set of browser-native controls with mechanisms to customise styling and behaviour. It would improve accessibility, improve performance, reduce page sizes (because we wouldn't be re-implementing the whole world in JS), and it would at least go a little way to offsetting the slow erosion of quality desktop software that web technologies are bringing.

int_19h 5y ago
I suspect that one of the big reasons why native HTML widgets are not improved, is because everybody who needs something "fancy" (by web standards), just rolls their own.
thristian 5y ago
The browser select-multiple widget works like that because that's how it's worked in most desktop OSs since Macintosh System 1.0 in 1984 (at least). It's been simple and predictable and easily learned for decades, calling it "borderline unusable" is just hyperbole. Now, if you wanted to say that HTML's standard widgets should be allowed to reflect the platform-native look-and-feel (for example, adding a "selected" checkbox on touch-screens, or supporting long-press to select items, or whatever) instead of being tied to Windows 95 appearance and behaviour by backwards-compatibility concerns, then yeah, I'd agree with that.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  It's "borderline unusable" because the vast majority of people who use computers probably wouldn't know how to select more than one item. There are no affordances and virtually nothing uses it any more. Even in the early desktop era when it was popular, many non-enthusiasts probably just didn't know how to use a UI control like that. It just didn't cause a problem because most people didn't use computers much. I would bet that most internet users today have never even used a UI where that control is popular.

NoGravitas 5y ago

Work for a government agency (in the US). We're required by law to meet accessibility standards, and at my workplace, we often do so through the path of least resistance – not using JavaScript to reimplement features that are already accessible and thereby take on the responsibility for implementing accessibility ourselves.

Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
> not using JavaScript to reimplement features that are already accessible Seriously, I've seen pages that create links by using a styled <span> tag with an onclick even that merely called a function that set document.location using a hard-coded value. Did developers forget that `<a href=....>` exists?

micromacrofoot 5y ago

You can care about accessibility and also re-implement the select element with divs.

beaconstudios 5y ago

Isn't that the whole point of ARIA roles? To enable you to create custom controls and interactions while marking them up for accessibility?