5 ms·

> What apple is creating here is an avenue for the FBI/NSA/Alphabet agency to create a FISA warrant and NDL to mandate hits on anything. The argument its gotta

by nicce 5y ago

> What apple is creating here is an avenue for the FBI/NSA/Alphabet agency to create a FISA warrant and NDL to mandate hits on anything. The argument its gotta be pre-icloud upload or subject to manual review or on some arbitrary threshold is something is just the marketing to get the public to accept it. Why would they make things even more complicated with limited access, since they can already access everything in cloud? Let’s leave out the argument for expanding scan to whole device. If that is what happens, then people start really discarding their phones.

klipklop 5y ago
Well for one scanning on-device lets them expand the amount of stuff they search for without an impact on their servers. We can all assume they will eventually start scanning for more things than just photos only before they are sent to iCloud. It can easily and _silently_ be expanded to be any file on the phone.
- nicce 5y ago
  You can do silently every imaginable thing right now. iOS is not exactly open-source system.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    Except that right now thy don't have a plausible reason to be scanning things, and any indication of something like that happening without prior expectation would be an even bigger deal than this is. Setting the expectation that this is acceptable is how you hide overstepping and abuse. Just because my neighbor physically can run out and physically attack me every time he sees me exit my house isn't a valid defense of him running out and verbally abusing and threatening me every time I leave, not is it a valid excuse not to worry about it escalating to that.
    - nicce 5y ago
      We were talking about silent things here. So there is no prior expectation for them? Silently expanding scan for every file for example would count still overstepping similar way for the most of the people. Because that is abuse, and usually there is zero tolerance. Apple has avoided marks of the abuse in the past pretty well. But anyway, Photos spotlight, Files app or Siri are already scanning you files and getting metadata. Metadata is even stored to iCloud to be able to keep sync process working. There are excuses if you want to make them.
    - iamtedd 5y ago
      > Except that right now thy don't have a plausible reason to be scanning things, and any indication of something like that happening without prior expectation would be an even bigger deal than this is. Setting the expectation that this is acceptable is how you hide overstepping and abuse. How do we know Apple isn't doing this right now? How do we know if and when they do? Are people keeping track of everything the phone sends back to Apple's servers? Is it even possible any more? Considering Apple doesn't let you have full access to the device, the phone could do anything, encrypt the message and send it. The only way I know would be by monitoring the traffic off-device on the network all the time, which means only while on Wifi. And that wouldn't give you content, only metadata, as by then it's encrypted and you don't have the key.
croutonwagon 5y ago
Because they dont have access to everything in the cloud.You dont have to use iCloud, or Siri, or Spotlight. This was specifically addressed in the San Benadino and other cases. Apple gave the FBI everything in the cloud. FBI was looking for everything on the device. What this change does is all a method, without an opt out option, for them to scan for anything on the device. Be it a string of text/keywords, or certain pictures of a place with certain metadata etc.
- nicce 5y ago
  This is just speculation. Current technical implementation limits scan only for images to be uploaded into cloud, which can be opted. If you don’t trust that, you can’t trust to use their devices right now either.
  - croutonwagon 5y ago
    That seems like a reach. >Current technical implementation limits scan only for images to be uploaded into cloud, which can be opted. That is conflating policy with a technical limitation. Their changes negate the technical discussion at this point. Their POLICY is that it will only scan for images to be uploaded. They no longer have a *legal* argument to not comply with government requests for device scanning of any data now, since the framework is now included. That is a big change in that regard. Whereas in the past there was a layer of trust that Apple would hold governments accountable and push back on behalf of a users privacy (and there is a very tangible history there), this implementation creates a gaping hole in that argument.
    - nicce 5y ago
      Actually it is not just POLICY. This scanning is build very deeeep in to the iCloud upload process. They need huge revamp for the system, and it seems intentional just because of this speculation. So we are in the same discussion whether this is implemented or not.
      - croutonwagon 5y ago

by nicce 5y ago

klipklop 5y ago

Well for one scanning on-device lets them expand the amount of stuff they search for without an impact on their servers. We can all assume they will eventually start scanning for more things than just photos only before they are sent to iCloud. It can easily and _silently_ be expanded to be any file on the phone.

nicce 5y ago
You can do silently every imaginable thing right now. iOS is not exactly open-source system.
- kbenson 5y ago
  Except that right now thy don't have a plausible reason to be scanning things, and any indication of something like that happening without prior expectation would be an even bigger deal than this is. Setting the expectation that this is acceptable is how you hide overstepping and abuse. Just because my neighbor physically can run out and physically attack me every time he sees me exit my house isn't a valid defense of him running out and verbally abusing and threatening me every time I leave, not is it a valid excuse not to worry about it escalating to that.
  - nicce 5y ago
    We were talking about silent things here. So there is no prior expectation for them? Silently expanding scan for every file for example would count still overstepping similar way for the most of the people. Because that is abuse, and usually there is zero tolerance. Apple has avoided marks of the abuse in the past pretty well. But anyway, Photos spotlight, Files app or Siri are already scanning you files and getting metadata. Metadata is even stored to iCloud to be able to keep sync process working. There are excuses if you want to make them.
  - iamtedd 5y ago
    > Except that right now thy don't have a plausible reason to be scanning things, and any indication of something like that happening without prior expectation would be an even bigger deal than this is. Setting the expectation that this is acceptable is how you hide overstepping and abuse. How do we know Apple isn't doing this right now? How do we know if and when they do? Are people keeping track of everything the phone sends back to Apple's servers? Is it even possible any more? Considering Apple doesn't let you have full access to the device, the phone could do anything, encrypt the message and send it. The only way I know would be by monitoring the traffic off-device on the network all the time, which means only while on Wifi. And that wouldn't give you content, only metadata, as by then it's encrypted and you don't have the key.

croutonwagon 5y ago

Because they dont have access to everything in the cloud.You dont have to use iCloud, or Siri, or Spotlight. This was specifically addressed in the San Benadino and other cases. Apple gave the FBI everything in the cloud. FBI was looking for everything on the device. What this change does is all a method, without an opt out option, for them to scan for anything on the device. Be it a string of text/keywords, or certain pictures of a place with certain metadata etc.

nicce 5y ago
This is just speculation. Current technical implementation limits scan only for images to be uploaded into cloud, which can be opted. If you don’t trust that, you can’t trust to use their devices right now either.
- croutonwagon 5y ago
  That seems like a reach. >Current technical implementation limits scan only for images to be uploaded into cloud, which can be opted. That is conflating policy with a technical limitation. Their changes negate the technical discussion at this point. Their POLICY is that it will only scan for images to be uploaded. They no longer have a *legal* argument to not comply with government requests for device scanning of any data now, since the framework is now included. That is a big change in that regard. Whereas in the past there was a layer of trust that Apple would hold governments accountable and push back on behalf of a users privacy (and there is a very tangible history there), this implementation creates a gaping hole in that argument.
  - nicce 5y ago
    Actually it is not just POLICY. This scanning is build very deeeep in to the iCloud upload process. They need huge revamp for the system, and it seems intentional just because of this speculation. So we are in the same discussion whether this is implemented or not.
    - croutonwagon 5y ago