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As an American I couldn’t care less that Chinese people’s data is handed over to Chinese people’s government, especially considering the alternative would be th

As an American I couldn’t care less that Chinese people’s data is handed over to Chinese people’s government, especially considering the alternative would be that Chinese people’s data is handed over to a US entity and by association the US government. Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. * Considering this fact, it is pretty one-sighted to see this as some sort of unconceivable act. However if you look at it from the other side would we want all American user data (assuming Russia had a company that had such pervasive penetration into American lives as Apple does globally) to be sitting on Russian servers subject to arbitrary Russian laws? So if you only consider American interests, it’s unconceivable for us to give up such power and control over other sovereign nations, but perhaps other countries don’t care about American interests like we do. All Apple did in China was comply with local laws to stay in business there. What Apple is doing in the US is not mandated by law (as far as I know). From the American side Apple has marketed itself as privacy focused, even fighting the FBI publicly at the risk of negative publicity. This about face is unexpected but also betrays those of us who invested in the Apple product line under the expectation they continue this standard of privacy and security that was marketed. Chinese people probably never expected this level of privacy to begin with, but we did and we can. * iCloud messages backups can be decrypted

phkahler 5y ago
Tic-toc
nicce 5y ago
> Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. The most seem to forget, that with this newcoming feature this is not possible anymore. Apple can’t decrypt your images anymore by request. (Read Apple’s PSI system) There is also strong evidence that same is coming for backups. On iOS 15 beta, there is backup recovery option by authentication key.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  They can’t decrypt the safety vouchers, which contain low resolution versions of your image until the conditions are met … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there. Unless of course this is a precursor to an E2E encrypted iCloud wherein Apple does not have the ability to decrypt your images server side. I don’t see how this design makes sense unless that’s the next step
  - nicce 5y ago
    > … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there They have no access. It is end-to-end encrypted with new system. That is the whole point of on-device scanning. It is not next step, it is already there.
    - kristjansson 5y ago
      It works if the photos are encrypted such that Apple can’t access them. Hence the wonky design. They haven’t announced that photos will be E2E encrypted.
      - nicce 5y ago
        They did… just read the specs. There are many pdf:s on the bottom. They failed the PR truly. https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
        kristjansson 5y ago
        That’s not my interpretation of the first party descriptions of the CSAM system. Clearly it works if photos are encrypted; nothing implies they’re using that capability yet. If that were the case, this would not merely be a PR mess but PR malpractice of an entirely other, novel kind.
        5y ago
whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
This to me is a surprising attitude. As an American whose outlook is generally framed by American values, it’s very upsetting to think of how privacy and freedoms are systematically impinged upon in so many parts of the world. If we can be upset about invasion of privacy in one country, why would those principles change at geopolitical borders?
- chrischen 5y ago
  The imposition of our own values onto others is how wars start. If you think that our values are encoded in laws, and accept that different sovereignties have different laws, then you should be able to accept that different people have different values and standards. Maybe to the EU we are barbarians because our consumer privacy laws are so lacking... Those principles are not universal because different cultures have different values, beliefs, standards, and situations. If you've been taught otherwise then you've been brainwashed by a propaganda machine designed to motivate you to support and fight wars of value imposition like the Iraq or Afghanistan wars. Plus, no country was around to teach the Americans how to build a society back then, and you could say we turned out fine enough. We are big proponents of democracy but not only do we acknowledge that democracy is not a perfect system to begin with (something we are taught in schools), but our version of democracy isn't even a perfect execution of it, much like how China isn't really a communist utopia. We are more like a capitalist democracy, where effectively the wealthy can leverage more of a vote (through advertising, propaganda, PACs, etc). So if all our systems are flawed, who are we really to impose our flawed values. The answer is that the real motivation for imposing our values isn't some belief in fundamental ideals or values, but rather for American interests. We didn't setup a puppet bureaucrat in Afghanistan because of democracy, we just wanted a friendly government in the Middle East. The CIA operating in your country doesn't give you relief! No, they are not there to help YOU or your people.
  - lupire 5y ago
    I'm glad people like you weren't in charge in 1861 in the USA. China is a slave country controlled by dictators against the will of the people, not just "a different culture".
nowherebeen 5y ago
> Chinese people probably never expected this level of privacy to begin with, but we did and we can. Taiwanese users data is also backed up to China. This was confirmed to me by an Apple Support in China. Whether you believe Taiwan is part of China or not, I can assure you users in Taiwan do expect this level to privacy. What we are seeing is a slow deterioration of user privacy across the Apple ecosystem, not just the US. So even if you don’t care about Chinese users data, it does show what Apple management as a whole thinks of your data.
hindsightbias 5y ago
Apple didn’t wake up one day and decide to do this on a lark. They’re being proactive, probably in a minimalist form, to anticipate regulatory powers on what is unarguably the largest or second largest platform used for illegal porn. If FB screeners have ptsd and are killing themselves over what they have to see every day, imagine what is on iCloud and iPhones. Right now, nobody is required to filter that content while social media is. The alternative to “sure, you tell us what is illegal and we’ll scan for it” is “We’re the govt and we want to see everyones photos for the children.” Sure, the latter may still happen, but probably later than sooner now. I’m surprised it has taken this long,
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  There was a great comment by joe_the_user on hn responding to this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28261573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28261573 >Government by threatened legislation is much worse than government by actual legislation. Legislation is public, Legislation can be opposed, legislation can be reviewed by the court and so-forth. Allowing yourself (and your users) to controlled by threats of legislation is allowing democracy to be discarded.

phkahler 5y ago

Tic-toc

nicce 5y ago

> Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. The most seem to forget, that with this newcoming feature this is not possible anymore. Apple can’t decrypt your images anymore by request. (Read Apple’s PSI system) There is also strong evidence that same is coming for backups. On iOS 15 beta, there is backup recovery option by authentication key.

kristjansson 5y ago
They can’t decrypt the safety vouchers, which contain low resolution versions of your image until the conditions are met … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there. Unless of course this is a precursor to an E2E encrypted iCloud wherein Apple does not have the ability to decrypt your images server side. I don’t see how this design makes sense unless that’s the next step
- nicce 5y ago
  > … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there They have no access. It is end-to-end encrypted with new system. That is the whole point of on-device scanning. It is not next step, it is already there.
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    It works if the photos are encrypted such that Apple can’t access them. Hence the wonky design. They haven’t announced that photos will be E2E encrypted.
    - nicce 5y ago
      They did… just read the specs. There are many pdf:s on the bottom. They failed the PR truly. https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
      - kristjansson 5y ago
        That’s not my interpretation of the first party descriptions of the CSAM system. Clearly it works if photos are encrypted; nothing implies they’re using that capability yet. If that were the case, this would not merely be a PR mess but PR malpractice of an entirely other, novel kind.
        5y ago

whatgoodisaroad 5y ago

This to me is a surprising attitude. As an American whose outlook is generally framed by American values, it’s very upsetting to think of how privacy and freedoms are systematically impinged upon in so many parts of the world. If we can be upset about invasion of privacy in one country, why would those principles change at geopolitical borders?

chrischen 5y ago
The imposition of our own values onto others is how wars start. If you think that our values are encoded in laws, and accept that different sovereignties have different laws, then you should be able to accept that different people have different values and standards. Maybe to the EU we are barbarians because our consumer privacy laws are so lacking... Those principles are not universal because different cultures have different values, beliefs, standards, and situations. If you've been taught otherwise then you've been brainwashed by a propaganda machine designed to motivate you to support and fight wars of value imposition like the Iraq or Afghanistan wars. Plus, no country was around to teach the Americans how to build a society back then, and you could say we turned out fine enough. We are big proponents of democracy but not only do we acknowledge that democracy is not a perfect system to begin with (something we are taught in schools), but our version of democracy isn't even a perfect execution of it, much like how China isn't really a communist utopia. We are more like a capitalist democracy, where effectively the wealthy can leverage more of a vote (through advertising, propaganda, PACs, etc). So if all our systems are flawed, who are we really to impose our flawed values. The answer is that the real motivation for imposing our values isn't some belief in fundamental ideals or values, but rather for American interests. We didn't setup a puppet bureaucrat in Afghanistan because of democracy, we just wanted a friendly government in the Middle East. The CIA operating in your country doesn't give you relief! No, they are not there to help YOU or your people.
- lupire 5y ago
  I'm glad people like you weren't in charge in 1861 in the USA. China is a slave country controlled by dictators against the will of the people, not just "a different culture".

nowherebeen 5y ago

> Chinese people probably never expected this level of privacy to begin with, but we did and we can. Taiwanese users data is also backed up to China. This was confirmed to me by an Apple Support in China. Whether you believe Taiwan is part of China or not, I can assure you users in Taiwan do expect this level to privacy. What we are seeing is a slow deterioration of user privacy across the Apple ecosystem, not just the US. So even if you don’t care about Chinese users data, it does show what Apple management as a whole thinks of your data.

hindsightbias 5y ago

Apple didn’t wake up one day and decide to do this on a lark. They’re being proactive, probably in a minimalist form, to anticipate regulatory powers on what is unarguably the largest or second largest platform used for illegal porn. If FB screeners have ptsd and are killing themselves over what they have to see every day, imagine what is on iCloud and iPhones. Right now, nobody is required to filter that content while social media is. The alternative to “sure, you tell us what is illegal and we’ll scan for it” is “We’re the govt and we want to see everyones photos for the children.” Sure, the latter may still happen, but probably later than sooner now. I’m surprised it has taken this long,

brokenmachine 5y ago
There was a great comment by joe_the_user on hn responding to this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28261573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28261573 >Government by threatened legislation is much worse than government by actual legislation. Legislation is public, Legislation can be opposed, legislation can be reviewed by the court and so-forth. Allowing yourself (and your users) to controlled by threats of legislation is allowing democracy to be discarded.