4 ms·

Little-Known Federal Software Can Trigger Revocation of Citizenship

37 points by nanis 5y ago

phnofive 5y ago
The criteria used in detecting fraud is usually a trade secret, and I'm not seeing why it shouldn't be here. Would it be better that 120,000 flags were distributed annually by complete chance? For the last twelve years, the DOJ prosecuted, on average, twenty individual cases annually to revoke naturalization, from fewer than a thousand leads. If the real argument here is that we shouldn't revoke citizenship, I'm amenable to that, but this doesn't seem a totally unreasonable approach to tracking down such a rare problem.
quasarj 5y ago
Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? I thought that wasn't possible. You would be absolutely fucked if that happened.. what would you even do? go float in the ocean or something?
- PhantomGremlin 5y ago
  Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? It's generally only possible if you're an immigrant. (The story mentions immigrants) If you're a native born US citizen, the US Supreme Court has said it's not possible for the govt to take away your citizenship for a crime. But you can renounce it yourself or go join a foreign country and fight against the USA and lose it that way.
  - junon 5y ago
    To be clear, you cannot renounce citizenship unless you have a valid destination country that will accept you, as far as I'm aware.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > you cannot renounce citizenship unless you have a valid destination country that will accept you Not true. If you’re an idiot, you can renounce citizenship and render yourself stateless.
      - junon 5y ago
        You're right, I'm not sure why I had it in my head. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... One of the requirements is to appear in front of a US consulate in a foreign country, so you're right - you'd have to be an absolute idiot.
- phnofive 5y ago
  As another commenter said, only for naturalized (non-jus soli) citizens, and only under limited circumstances, such as lying during your application or bad behavior within a few years of being naturalized. You'd likely be deported to your home country.
  - matttproud 5y ago
    The United States uses jus sanguinis and jus soli. So this would be relevant for strictly cases of naturalization, which are neither, I believe. The paperwork you file as an American abroad for obtaining citizenship (jus sanguinis) through Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA) has gotten more difficult over the years (it appears intentional) to trip up fallacious filings by making more mistakes. My most “favorite” memory: being stuck in a consular room at the embassy with my cellphone confiscated and being forced to enumerate all time intervals I was in the United States ever (lived or traveled into or via) for my entire life down to exact date accuracy for CRBA. Try doing that if — pre-pandemic — you had a lot of regular business travel.
- atatatat 5y ago
  > Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? The USA¹ revokes lives in any place they wish — citizenship? Puh. ¹As do other nationstates, so we can just skip over all of that.
anm89 5y ago
Why is the cloud provider they used important enough to be in the head line?
jobigoud 5y ago
I don't like laws that only apply to naturalized citizens. Basically it means that you are still not a "true" citizen, as there is a specific punishment that only your kind can get. Laws should be the same for all.
- sschueller 5y ago
  Yet if you move back to your previous country you are expected to pay and file US taxes forever . To renounce your citizenship you need to pay a hefty fee and pay taxes on all your assets. But any point they can just take it away. WTF

37 points by nanis 5y ago

The criteria used in detecting fraud is usually a trade secret, and I'm not seeing why it shouldn't be here. Would it be better that 120,000 flags were distributed annually by complete chance? For the last twelve years, the DOJ prosecuted, on average, twenty individual cases annually to revoke naturalization, from fewer than a thousand leads. If the real argument here is that we shouldn't revoke citizenship, I'm amenable to that, but this doesn't seem a totally unreasonable approach to tracking down such a rare problem.

quasarj 5y ago

Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? I thought that wasn't possible. You would be absolutely fucked if that happened.. what would you even do? go float in the ocean or something?

PhantomGremlin 5y ago
Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? It's generally only possible if you're an immigrant. (The story mentions immigrants) If you're a native born US citizen, the US Supreme Court has said it's not possible for the govt to take away your citizenship for a crime. But you can renounce it yourself or go join a foreign country and fight against the USA and lose it that way.
- junon 5y ago
  To be clear, you cannot renounce citizenship unless you have a valid destination country that will accept you, as far as I'm aware.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > you cannot renounce citizenship unless you have a valid destination country that will accept you Not true. If you’re an idiot, you can renounce citizenship and render yourself stateless.
    - junon 5y ago
      You're right, I'm not sure why I had it in my head. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... One of the requirements is to appear in front of a US consulate in a foreign country, so you're right - you'd have to be an absolute idiot.
phnofive 5y ago
As another commenter said, only for naturalized (non-jus soli) citizens, and only under limited circumstances, such as lying during your application or bad behavior within a few years of being naturalized. You'd likely be deported to your home country.
- matttproud 5y ago
  The United States uses jus sanguinis and jus soli. So this would be relevant for strictly cases of naturalization, which are neither, I believe. The paperwork you file as an American abroad for obtaining citizenship (jus sanguinis) through Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA) has gotten more difficult over the years (it appears intentional) to trip up fallacious filings by making more mistakes. My most “favorite” memory: being stuck in a consular room at the embassy with my cellphone confiscated and being forced to enumerate all time intervals I was in the United States ever (lived or traveled into or via) for my entire life down to exact date accuracy for CRBA. Try doing that if — pre-pandemic — you had a lot of regular business travel.
atatatat 5y ago
> Wait, the USA can revoke citizenship? The USA¹ revokes lives in any place they wish — citizenship? Puh. ¹As do other nationstates, so we can just skip over all of that.

anm89 5y ago

Why is the cloud provider they used important enough to be in the head line?

jobigoud 5y ago

I don't like laws that only apply to naturalized citizens. Basically it means that you are still not a "true" citizen, as there is a specific punishment that only your kind can get. Laws should be the same for all.

sschueller 5y ago
Yet if you move back to your previous country you are expected to pay and file US taxes forever . To renounce your citizenship you need to pay a hefty fee and pay taxes on all your assets. But any point they can just take it away. WTF