3 ms·

> I'm not an anti-vaxxer but was holding out. No judgement, just genuinely curious, but what was your reason for holding out?

by jdnier 5y ago

busymom0 5y ago
Not OP but I am in a similar situation where I am holding out too. I am in the 20-29 age group in Canada, healthy, no co-morbidities, I have been regularly exercising for over a decade, eat healthy, don't smoke/drink/drugs etc. Also I believe I have already caught COVID earlier last year (though I wasn't tested so this could be wrong). There's been a total of 67 deaths in my age group for entire Canada in entire 20 months of the disease. Even the hospitalization in the entire 20 months for my age group has been 3,144 which isn't much in my eyes. And vast majority of these occurred in people who had pre-existing conditions. And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same (and sometimes higher) viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. So I don't see how me getting vaccinated is "for the common good". Canada is also 2-3 months behind Israel in terms of COVID trends (case peaks). So what's happening in Israel right now will happen in 2-3 months from Canada. So I don't see how I can benefit from it and am willing to take chances. What we should be doing is saving the vaccines for the elders for booster shots and working on improved vaccines for the new variants. There's a huge population in the world which can't even get their first dose of vaccine while here we are giving out 3rd doses.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  > And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. Widely reported and wildly inaccurate. They studied patients with ‘breakthrough’ infections, i.e. where the vaccine didn’t work. And guess what they found? The vaccine didn’t work!!
- kaitai 5y ago
  Please don't hang out in public & around vulnerable people (kids, elderly) or those who live with them. There's only one way to be responsibly unvaccinated, and that's very cautiously. (This whole "vaccinated people have higher viral loads of Delta in their mouths" thing makes me doubt your understanding of the science, as well.)
  - tomp 5y ago
    “Kids” are actually the least vulnerable people, when it comes to this virus.
  - busymom0 5y ago
    > This whole "vaccinated people have higher viral loads of Delta in their mouths" thing makes me doubt your understanding of the science, as well. Why are changing what I said? I never said mouth. Where are you getting that from? Please refrain from using snark and ad-hominem attacks on HN. Especially when you yourself seem to not understand that kids are the least vulnerable group.
- comex 5y ago
  > And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. They have the same viral load if they get infected. But the mRNA vaccines still reduce the chance of being infected by about 80% (according to [1]), which in effect reduces the chance of infecting others. > And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. Its effectiveness goes down, but it would likely take years for it to go to zero. Regardless, that's what booster shots are for. > There's a huge population in the world which can't even get their first dose of vaccine while here we are giving out 3rd doses. True. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v...
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  >they have the same (and sometimes higher) viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. The higher part is categorically untrue. The 'same' part is only true in a very narrow sense. Yes, vaccinated individuals have peak viral titers that are the same level as unvaccinated. But vaccinated individual titer levels drop off substantially faster than unvaccinated individuals. So, while an immunologically naive individual might be infectious for 5 or 6 days, a vaccinated individual may only be infectious for 1 or 2. This is exactly what one would predict based on our understanding of the human immune system. Memory B cells that respond to the antigen would start kicking out antibodies. Some will also undergo further affinity maturation with the Delta antigen. Affinity maturation of these B cells will occur much faster since the target is already very close. >And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. So I don't see how me getting vaccinated is "for the common good". As stated above, you would be less infectious having had the vaccine. One thing to consider is that the outcome of COVID is not 'alive or dead'. There is a spectrum of outcomes that are not captured in official mortality statistics. While it's not clear exactly what that spectrum is (e.g. how many long covid cases really exist), I would note that there are a lot of anecdotes out there about athletes that can't climb a flight of stairs 12 months out after covid.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    This study by FAIR Health attempted to assess the prevalence of Long COVID from billions of US healthcare claims looking for problems that occurred 30+ days after a diagnosis of COVID-19: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/asset/A%20Detailed%20Study%20of%20Patients%20with%20Long-Haul%20COVID--An%20Analysis%20of%20Private%20Healthcare%20Claims--A%20FAIR%20Health%20White%20Paper.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/as...
  - busymom0 5y ago
    > The higher part is categorically untrue. The 'same' part is only true in a very narrow sense. 3 studies showing that vaccinated have the same viral load as unvaccinated. When we are talking about many variable numbers, especially of a highly transmissible one, if something can be same, then there are also cases of them being higher. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.19.21260808v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.19.21260808v... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm > We find no difference in viral loads when comparing unvaccinated individuals to those who have vaccine “breakthrough” infections. Furthermore, individuals with vaccine breakthrough infections frequently test positive with viral loads consistent with the ability to shed infectious viruses. Our results, while preliminary, suggest that if vaccinated individuals become infected with the delta variant, they may be sources of SARS-CoV-2 transmission to others. > One thing to consider is that the outcome of COVID is not 'alive or dead'. There is a spectrum of outcomes that are not captured in official mortality statistics. While it's not clear exactly what that spectrum is (e.g. how many long covid cases really exist), I would note that there are a lot of anecdotes out there about athletes that can't climb a flight of stairs 12 months out after covid. I am aware. And that's why I have made my own calculated decision. Things such as what to inject in my body are deeply personal choices and I have done my cost vs benefit analysis to conclude I will skip the current vaccine until it gets updated to be more effective for longer periods of time and when long term studies have been done. There's a certain risk we are all willing to take in making decisions. I am willing to take this risk. Especially when the data is consistently changing. What's the guarantee than the efficacy won't further drop in the next 3-6 months? Nor will there be any long term studies for a while. I can also sympathize with many in the black, hispanic and Philippine community who have severe distrust in the medical community. Just look at the number of deaths and serious injuries which happen in my age group of 20-29: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/motor-vehicle-safety/canadian-motor-vehicle-traffic-collision-statistics-2018 https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/motor-vehicle-sa... That doesn't mean I stop being in a car (even though I don't drive). Plus I have most likely already caught covid last year (I have never been sick in over 11 years except last year with very similar symptoms).

> I'm not an anti-vaxxer but was holding out. No judgement, just genuinely curious, but what was your reason for holding out?

by jdnier 5y ago

> I'm not an anti-vaxxer but was holding out. No judgement, just genuinely curious, but what was your reason for holding out?

busymom0 5y ago

Not OP but I am in a similar situation where I am holding out too. I am in the 20-29 age group in Canada, healthy, no co-morbidities, I have been regularly exercising for over a decade, eat healthy, don't smoke/drink/drugs etc. Also I believe I have already caught COVID earlier last year (though I wasn't tested so this could be wrong). There's been a total of 67 deaths in my age group for entire Canada in entire 20 months of the disease. Even the hospitalization in the entire 20 months for my age group has been 3,144 which isn't much in my eyes. And vast majority of these occurred in people who had pre-existing conditions. And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same (and sometimes higher) viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. So I don't see how me getting vaccinated is "for the common good". Canada is also 2-3 months behind Israel in terms of COVID trends (case peaks). So what's happening in Israel right now will happen in 2-3 months from Canada. So I don't see how I can benefit from it and am willing to take chances. What we should be doing is saving the vaccines for the elders for booster shots and working on improved vaccines for the new variants. There's a huge population in the world which can't even get their first dose of vaccine while here we are giving out 3rd doses.

mr_toad 5y ago
> And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. Widely reported and wildly inaccurate. They studied patients with ‘breakthrough’ infections, i.e. where the vaccine didn’t work. And guess what they found? The vaccine didn’t work!!
kaitai 5y ago
Please don't hang out in public & around vulnerable people (kids, elderly) or those who live with them. There's only one way to be responsibly unvaccinated, and that's very cautiously. (This whole "vaccinated people have higher viral loads of Delta in their mouths" thing makes me doubt your understanding of the science, as well.)
- tomp 5y ago
  “Kids” are actually the least vulnerable people, when it comes to this virus.
- busymom0 5y ago
  > This whole "vaccinated people have higher viral loads of Delta in their mouths" thing makes me doubt your understanding of the science, as well. Why are changing what I said? I never said mouth. Where are you getting that from? Please refrain from using snark and ad-hominem attacks on HN. Especially when you yourself seem to not understand that kids are the least vulnerable group.
comex 5y ago
> And as it has now been widely reported, vaccinated can not only catch covid, they have the same viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. They have the same viral load if they get infected. But the mRNA vaccines still reduce the chance of being infected by about 80% (according to [1]), which in effect reduces the chance of infecting others. > And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. Its effectiveness goes down, but it would likely take years for it to go to zero. Regardless, that's what booster shots are for. > There's a huge population in the world which can't even get their first dose of vaccine while here we are giving out 3rd doses. True. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v...
anonuser123456 5y ago
>they have the same (and sometimes higher) viral load as unvaccinated and can infect others. The higher part is categorically untrue. The 'same' part is only true in a very narrow sense. Yes, vaccinated individuals have peak viral titers that are the same level as unvaccinated. But vaccinated individual titer levels drop off substantially faster than unvaccinated individuals. So, while an immunologically naive individual might be infectious for 5 or 6 days, a vaccinated individual may only be infectious for 1 or 2. This is exactly what one would predict based on our understanding of the human immune system. Memory B cells that respond to the antigen would start kicking out antibodies. Some will also undergo further affinity maturation with the Delta antigen. Affinity maturation of these B cells will occur much faster since the target is already very close. >And the vaccine is waning off in 3-6 months. So I don't see how me getting vaccinated is "for the common good". As stated above, you would be less infectious having had the vaccine. One thing to consider is that the outcome of COVID is not 'alive or dead'. There is a spectrum of outcomes that are not captured in official mortality statistics. While it's not clear exactly what that spectrum is (e.g. how many long covid cases really exist), I would note that there are a lot of anecdotes out there about athletes that can't climb a flight of stairs 12 months out after covid.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  This study by FAIR Health attempted to assess the prevalence of Long COVID from billions of US healthcare claims looking for problems that occurred 30+ days after a diagnosis of COVID-19: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/asset/A%20Detailed%20Study%20of%20Patients%20with%20Long-Haul%20COVID--An%20Analysis%20of%20Private%20Healthcare%20Claims--A%20FAIR%20Health%20White%20Paper.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/as...
- busymom0 5y ago
  > The higher part is categorically untrue. The 'same' part is only true in a very narrow sense. 3 studies showing that vaccinated have the same viral load as unvaccinated. When we are talking about many variable numbers, especially of a highly transmissible one, if something can be same, then there are also cases of them being higher. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.19.21260808v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.19.21260808v... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm > We find no difference in viral loads when comparing unvaccinated individuals to those who have vaccine “breakthrough” infections. Furthermore, individuals with vaccine breakthrough infections frequently test positive with viral loads consistent with the ability to shed infectious viruses. Our results, while preliminary, suggest that if vaccinated individuals become infected with the delta variant, they may be sources of SARS-CoV-2 transmission to others. > One thing to consider is that the outcome of COVID is not 'alive or dead'. There is a spectrum of outcomes that are not captured in official mortality statistics. While it's not clear exactly what that spectrum is (e.g. how many long covid cases really exist), I would note that there are a lot of anecdotes out there about athletes that can't climb a flight of stairs 12 months out after covid. I am aware. And that's why I have made my own calculated decision. Things such as what to inject in my body are deeply personal choices and I have done my cost vs benefit analysis to conclude I will skip the current vaccine until it gets updated to be more effective for longer periods of time and when long term studies have been done. There's a certain risk we are all willing to take in making decisions. I am willing to take this risk. Especially when the data is consistently changing. What's the guarantee than the efficacy won't further drop in the next 3-6 months? Nor will there be any long term studies for a while. I can also sympathize with many in the black, hispanic and Philippine community who have severe distrust in the medical community. Just look at the number of deaths and serious injuries which happen in my age group of 20-29: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/motor-vehicle-safety/canadian-motor-vehicle-traffic-collision-statistics-2018 https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/motor-vehicle-sa... That doesn't mean I stop being in a car (even though I don't drive). Plus I have most likely already caught covid last year (I have never been sick in over 11 years except last year with very similar symptoms).