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I went to Berkeley and I disagree. The reason for overcrowding isn't increase in school size, it is reduced support from the state and administrative mismanagem

I went to Berkeley and I disagree. The reason for overcrowding isn't increase in school size, it is reduced support from the state and administrative mismanagement & bloat. It's literally hunger games for pretty much all the schools except Haas and EECS when it's time to get funding. Tuition is more than 35% of all revenue. All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. So you have to get more students to make more money. State support is now just 14% of the revenue (used to be a lot more before). Federal grants have reduced dramatically. The only other sources left are gifts, which btw only select schools bring in. Meanwhile the costs are only going up. 40% of the budget goes into wages and staffing costs. And another 20% goes towards pensions. I was a TA for an undergrad course and we had 80 students per TA, mostly because of budget cuts. So yeah letting Berkeley be the place it once was requires not only increased state and federal funding, but also increase in tuition to keep up with inflated wages that people need to be paid in Berkeley, CA.

brainmapper 5y ago
Yes! In 1980 the state of California paid about 80% of the cost of an undergraduate student's education. Today it is about 8%. The state has dis-invested from higher education to fund other things (like prisons).
- whoisburbansky 5y ago
  The percentage of the state budget allocated for Tertiary Education in 1980 was 8.9% vs 8.1% in 2021. Prison spending was 1.8% of the budget in 1980 vs 2.1% in 2021.
  - zamfi 5y ago
    Hmm, where did you get that number from? [0] says: > Higher education spending accounted for 18% of the state budget in 1976–77, but by 2016–17 higher education funding had fallen to 12% of the budget. These funding cuts have been felt most strongly at the University of California, where funding per full-time-equivalent student fell from slightly more than $23,000 to about $8,000. CSU funding per student has also fallen by about 25% since 1976–77 from slightly more than $11,000 per student to slightly less than $9,000. It appears that the number of students has skyrocketed (UCB in 1980: ~14k, in 2020: ~32k) while total funding has not even kept up with baseline inflation. Also driving salaries upward are housing costs near some of the biggest schools (LA and Bay Area housing costs much more now than in 1980 in "inflation-adjusted" terms). Another big difference, though, is how much financial aid students get, which is heavily biased toward low-income first-in-family students who, presumably, are less likely to complain about the state of things than privileged middle-class young adults whose lives are harder than their parents'. (Over 50% of the 675k total UC and CSU students pay no tuition, also according to [0].) The fact that the percentage of the state budget allocated to Higher Ed is not super dissimilar from 1980 ignores that the amount of public funding per-student has dropped dramatically while the cost of providing that education has risen dramatically. [0]: https://www.ppic.org/publication/higher-education-funding-in-california/ https://www.ppic.org/publication/higher-education-funding-in...
    - whoisburbansky 5y ago
      This is where I got the numbers from: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/california_state_spending_pie_chart?show=n https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/california_state_spendi.... I agree that ballooning costs in the face of a constant slice of the same pie is a problem, but I wasn’t sure that diverting funding to prisons was the reason why, and that’s really all I wanted to check.
epicureanideal 5y ago
Maybe they should think about limiting and then reducing their administrative staff.
- darth_avocado 5y ago
  That would be a start, but not enough. The larger problem is that it costs money to run a university and UC system has most students on discounted tuition. So they need to find money somewhere. You can have less students at twice the tuition, but that’s not a solution.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
kelnos 5y ago
> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. Is that sort of thing normal? Not the 1-year time frame, but is it normal that living on campus changes your residency such that you can qualify for in-state tuition? That just seems bizarre; unless you are moving to the campus (or nearby) full time (that is, not "going home" between semesters and during the summer), it feels kinda wrong for that to establish residency. I grew up in Maryland and went to college in New York, but I never changed my residency to NY. I don't recall any of my out-of-state college friends doing so either (for example, we all kept our home-state driver's licenses).
- cuongt 5y ago
  I don't think this is correct based on these: - https://www.collegeconfidential.com/articles/can-pay-state-tuition-one-year-another-state/ - https://www.ucop.edu/uc-legal/_files/ed-affairs/uc-residence-policy.pdf It states that "Physical presence in California solely for educational purposes does not constitute the establishment of California residence, regardless of length of stay. "
bschlinker 5y ago
> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. This isn't true in many cases. I was an out of state student attending a California university and was paying out of state tuition for all years. You can only establish residency if you demonstrate financial independence (e.g., you need a full time job). If you have someone else helping pay the tuition that is outside the state, or if you're using loans to fund yourself, you remain an out of stater.
sigstoat 5y ago
> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. yeah... universities worked this issue out more than 20 years ago. maybe a couple of folks will chime in with post-2010 bachelor's degrees from some place that hasn't caught on, but this is largely gone.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dantheman 5y ago
Seems like they should have funded their pensions appropriately when they offered them.
labcomputer 5y ago
> and administrative mismanagement & bloat Ding ding ding. Universities managed to function (by some miracle) before the current explosion in support staff. It's doubly amazing because much of the work performed by support staff in the 1960's, 70's and 80's has been automated. Some examples: * The registar's office used to manage paper lists of students, and "signing up" for class meant showing up in person to write your name in ink. Your "permanent record" was a physical manila envelope with paper inside. That's all done in a web portal now. * The bursar's office handled physical checks or cash for nearly everyone. Today almost virtually all payment is handled electronically. * Professors (or their TAs) can now use a departmental copy/print machine to automatically create stapled exam packets instead of having an administrative assistant copy, collate and staple the exam. Somehow, the enormous technology-driven increase in labor productivity, seen in all other sectors of the economy, has not impacted colleges and universities. That "somehow" is mismanagement and bloat.

brainmapper 5y ago

Yes! In 1980 the state of California paid about 80% of the cost of an undergraduate student's education. Today it is about 8%. The state has dis-invested from higher education to fund other things (like prisons).

whoisburbansky 5y ago
The percentage of the state budget allocated for Tertiary Education in 1980 was 8.9% vs 8.1% in 2021. Prison spending was 1.8% of the budget in 1980 vs 2.1% in 2021.
- zamfi 5y ago
  Hmm, where did you get that number from? [0] says: > Higher education spending accounted for 18% of the state budget in 1976–77, but by 2016–17 higher education funding had fallen to 12% of the budget. These funding cuts have been felt most strongly at the University of California, where funding per full-time-equivalent student fell from slightly more than $23,000 to about $8,000. CSU funding per student has also fallen by about 25% since 1976–77 from slightly more than $11,000 per student to slightly less than $9,000. It appears that the number of students has skyrocketed (UCB in 1980: ~14k, in 2020: ~32k) while total funding has not even kept up with baseline inflation. Also driving salaries upward are housing costs near some of the biggest schools (LA and Bay Area housing costs much more now than in 1980 in "inflation-adjusted" terms). Another big difference, though, is how much financial aid students get, which is heavily biased toward low-income first-in-family students who, presumably, are less likely to complain about the state of things than privileged middle-class young adults whose lives are harder than their parents'. (Over 50% of the 675k total UC and CSU students pay no tuition, also according to [0].) The fact that the percentage of the state budget allocated to Higher Ed is not super dissimilar from 1980 ignores that the amount of public funding per-student has dropped dramatically while the cost of providing that education has risen dramatically. [0]: https://www.ppic.org/publication/higher-education-funding-in-california/ https://www.ppic.org/publication/higher-education-funding-in...
  - whoisburbansky 5y ago
    This is where I got the numbers from: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/california_state_spending_pie_chart?show=n https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/california_state_spendi.... I agree that ballooning costs in the face of a constant slice of the same pie is a problem, but I wasn’t sure that diverting funding to prisons was the reason why, and that’s really all I wanted to check.

epicureanideal 5y ago

Maybe they should think about limiting and then reducing their administrative staff.

darth_avocado 5y ago
That would be a start, but not enough. The larger problem is that it costs money to run a university and UC system has most students on discounted tuition. So they need to find money somewhere. You can have less students at twice the tuition, but that’s not a solution.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

kelnos 5y ago

> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. Is that sort of thing normal? Not the 1-year time frame, but is it normal that living on campus changes your residency such that you can qualify for in-state tuition? That just seems bizarre; unless you are moving to the campus (or nearby) full time (that is, not "going home" between semesters and during the summer), it feels kinda wrong for that to establish residency. I grew up in Maryland and went to college in New York, but I never changed my residency to NY. I don't recall any of my out-of-state college friends doing so either (for example, we all kept our home-state driver's licenses).

cuongt 5y ago
I don't think this is correct based on these: - https://www.collegeconfidential.com/articles/can-pay-state-tuition-one-year-another-state/ - https://www.ucop.edu/uc-legal/_files/ed-affairs/uc-residence-policy.pdf It states that "Physical presence in California solely for educational purposes does not constitute the establishment of California residence, regardless of length of stay. "

bschlinker 5y ago

> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. This isn't true in many cases. I was an out of state student attending a California university and was paying out of state tuition for all years. You can only establish residency if you demonstrate financial independence (e.g., you need a full time job). If you have someone else helping pay the tuition that is outside the state, or if you're using loans to fund yourself, you remain an out of stater.

sigstoat 5y ago

> All domestic students have to pay AT MOST of 1 year of out of state tuition, because you establish in state residency in your first year here. yeah... universities worked this issue out more than 20 years ago. maybe a couple of folks will chime in with post-2010 bachelor's degrees from some place that hasn't caught on, but this is largely gone.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dantheman 5y ago

Seems like they should have funded their pensions appropriately when they offered them.

labcomputer 5y ago

> and administrative mismanagement & bloat Ding ding ding. Universities managed to function (by some miracle) before the current explosion in support staff. It's doubly amazing because much of the work performed by support staff in the 1960's, 70's and 80's has been automated. Some examples: * The registar's office used to manage paper lists of students, and "signing up" for class meant showing up in person to write your name in ink. Your "permanent record" was a physical manila envelope with paper inside. That's all done in a web portal now. * The bursar's office handled physical checks or cash for nearly everyone. Today almost virtually all payment is handled electronically. * Professors (or their TAs) can now use a departmental copy/print machine to automatically create stapled exam packets instead of having an administrative assistant copy, collate and staple the exam. Somehow, the enormous technology-driven increase in labor productivity, seen in all other sectors of the economy, has not impacted colleges and universities. That "somehow" is mismanagement and bloat.