6 ms·

This person understands what actual burnout is. You get really seriously fried, like 'can't function in any sense' fried. The references to 'you have to decide

This person understands what actual burnout is. You get really seriously fried, like 'can't function in any sense' fried. The references to 'you have to decide what we'll watch on netflix because I literally cannot choose a thing' rang very true to me. I generally needed more than a couple months but less than a year, and the removal of whatever it was that I'd burnt myself to a crisp trying to control. Over my lifetime that's been everything from overcoming homelessness, starting a business, transitioning the business to Patreon, trying to have a relationship: it's been a lifelong process of learning that I can't have things (even very desirable things) just by pushing harder to earn them. Quite often I just have to give up and not have the thing. The more I learn that, the less I'm riding the edge of burnout. :)

marcc 5y ago
I'm glad you are doing better. I think the author here does understand what burnout is, and was able to notice the symptoms a lot earlier. It shouldn't get to the point of not even being able to decide what to watch on Netflix. Burnout happens, and I think conditions less serious than yours can still be called burnout. Again, really happy you are ok. I hope you are working in an environment that is healthy, and that you are able to prevent burning out again.
- paulannesley 5y ago
  I think you saw a "doesn't" that wasn't there in the opening line: "This person understands what actual burnout is." The Netflix reference was from the original post.
  - marcc 5y ago
    You are right!
- Applejinx 5y ago
  Thank you :) a number of things helped. Sadly, one of them was the death of my parents (but they were cared for and respected right to the end, and my darker take on their expectations can't hurt them now), and another was cutting ties with some family members. Another thing that helped was Patreon, honestly, and I'll tell you specifically why: formerly I was making products sold commercially. This produced a lot of pressure to have 'hit' products, and a lot of fear when the ideas weren't coming, or when the idea wasn't selling. Going open source and Patreon-supported changed that to a more distributed system that was less bursty: didn't make as much peak money by a factor of three or more, but it was far FAR more predictable. The increasing stability of this has been a huge help. I believe if society instantiated a basic income, that too would help many people avoid burnout, and remain productive, for the same reasons. Over-pressure is real, and damages productivity.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    Have you written anything about your experience in "Going open source and Patreon-supported"? Most of the examples I've come across seem to be receiving trivial amounts.
White_Wolf 5y ago
Respect for needing only a few months. I got burned out so bad a few year back (2015-my fist and only time) I was not able to focus on anything for almost 14 months. Still feels surreal thinking about it. Had parts for rebuild my rack and everything in it and was not able to gather my thought to set anything up. I failed to install even a basic ubuntu server in 1-2 tries. Apart from tending to the flowers in the garden, cutting grass and cooking... I was good for nothing. Watching a movie? Autoplay on youtube was it. Just sit there until 2AM watching <random>. Shopping for groceries? good joke. Sleeping? I was dreaming I'm in the office half the time. I had a flipping server chasing me down the rail track a few times because it didn't like the transcoding settings. Eh. Not pleasant but I'm counting it as a lesson in life. I digress. What I'm trying to say is that I envy people that can get out of it so fast.
- bserge 5y ago
  You should experience burning out and having your ashes ignited (because you can't afford to quit), too. It's sooo much fuuun! Fuck life.
- zoomablemind 5y ago
  > ...I was dreaming I'm in the office half the time. I had a flipping server chasing me down the rail track a few times because it didn't like the transcoding settings. That sounds like a full on PTSD! Hope you're feeling better since and the "bad chi" got purged from your internal storage, so to speak.
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    I'm over it man. Thank you very much. I wish I could say I got over it on my own with sheer will but it was thanks to my wife. She pulled me back bit by bit. As for bad qi... Most of it gone. My biggest regret is that my wife had to go through keeping the house toghether on her own while all of this was happening. P.S. I do apppologise if my thought are a bit messy. That whole aspect of my life is somewhat blurry and only remember some part of it. Looking back it's like watching a bad movie that you can only remember a few really bad scenes from. What I remember very well is that sense of helplessness. I don't wish that to anyone.
tdeck 5y ago
Reading this I'm wondering if I simply lack the willpower to get that burned out. When I start getting miserable and overloaded for a while, I tend to "burn out" in smaller ways and for shorter periods. Maybe I'll just become less productive for a few days or wake up with a massive headache and have to take the day off. I'm not particularly proud of these things but now I wonder if the alternative is worse.
- ScoobleDoodle 5y ago
  I would call that a blessing in disguise. From my experience the alternative is indeed worse. It’s much better that your pressure valve opens at a lower pressure and forces you to take some time to care for yourself. Rather than letting the pressure build until you break and then not much can be done but wait for the slow process of healing to rebuild you.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  I feel that, I’m not a lazy slug by any stretch but my company seems to be fine with me and other devs working 40-45h per week. I still get the stress, frustration and weeks of listlessness, then I read these articles about 80h weeks and feel even worse.
- Applejinx 5y ago
  I don't think it's really a matter of willpower. I experienced multiple burnouts because depression was not an option: I was the black sheep of a demanding and successful family which demanded that I play that role for them, but also demanded that I accept I was really a genius capable of anything, and therefore morally at fault for not achieving everything. I was the chosen one… who'd gone terribly wrong. As such, I was twisted enough that years of therapy was in order, but really could not let go. To me, five minutes not fretting about how I was going to think up brilliant things and conquer the world, was five unacceptable minutes of being horribly lazy. That's not willpower, that's serious mental illness. Burnout is just more evidence that serious mental illness is NOT good for you or your productivity. More pressure, past some indefinable point, does not make you more productive. Any healthy person will rebel, balk, drag their feet and call it whatever (no skin off my nose if you call it burnout). A sufficiently mentally ill person will not be able to rebel, or balk, and will HATE themselves passionately for any moment of feet-dragging, and so they will push harder even while they are miserable… but pay a heavier cost. Think of it as mental rhabdo (for crossfit fans). Because you are so unhealthy you don't respect any of your own limits, you drive your mental muscles into severe organic collapse and end up flooded with poison, and substantially weaker than you were, for a considerable time. It's not failure of will or collapse of attitude, you manage to mentally break yourself until you don't work and can't think or function. Bad news. Willpower won't get you there because willpower doesn't automatically mean self-destruction. 'burning out' in smaller ways is MUCH healthier and better in every respect.
devin 5y ago
When I was in my 20s I feel like I bounced back from burnout in about 6 weeks. At 36 it feels like it's taking quite a bit longer than that. The pandemic certainly hasn't helped.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
This is a good opportunity to point out (to everyone, not just this parent comment) that there is a lot of overlap between burnout and depression. It's a common mistake for people to think that because they can identify the cause of their current state (work-induced burnout from a bad job, for example) that their symptoms can't be from depression. That's not true. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, they overlap heavily both in symptoms and possible treatments. The good news is that many of the techniques designed to address depression, such as CBT, self-guided therapy, exercises, and so on, translate quite effectively to helping with burnout, too. In fact, a burned-out person can pick up a CBT book or sign up with a therapist and drop right into helpful exercises to begin restoring a sense of agency, rebuilding autonomy, unlearning negative thought patterns, and other things that contribute to getting stuck in burnout.
- dbcurtis 5y ago
  Agreed. Burnout and depression may overlap. In my case, they did not. I’ve been burned out. I’ve been depressed. Burned out is better :) If you think you might be depressed, get some help. Joking aside, for me the therapy is the same for either. I need to selfishly attend to my own agenda for a while, and build something just because. My workshop is my therapy zone. YMMV.
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    > My workshop is my therapy zone. Hell yes, I bought like $3k worth of woodworking tools and supplies over the course of 2020 and that was my therapy. And the only actual project I finished is a janky dining table that’s too small for our 3 person family XD
- yazaddaruvala 5y ago
  Yeah I agree. I always thought burnout and depression were the same thing. How I’ve previously (maybe incorrectly) differentiated is: Disclaimer: Trying to be concise, I understand depression is a spectrum, different for everyone, and a lot more complex than these few words. Depression: You’re basically fried and can’t make decisions in any/all “verticals” (i.e. self-love, romance, professional, etc) not even to leave the house. Burnout / Heartbroken: A subset of depression for a specific vertical in life. Burnout is a depression from a profession, but you still enjoy/can go on dates or hang out with friends. Heartbroken is a depression from romance, but you still enjoy/can work to distract yourself, take up a hobby, etc.
Applejinx 5y ago
Bit of a follow-up: by 'this person' I DO mean the article author, I'm not pointing thumbs at myself and saying 'this guy, am I right?" :D
elevenoh 5y ago
Holy shit. Genuinely curious: if one is listening to their authentic inner voice, would they ever do this to themself?
- Applejinx 5y ago
  Nope. A healthy personality doesn't do this. (though that does also mean… a healthy personality doesn't end up being the biggest winner, gold-medal holder, best at what they do) If your inner voice is that you MUST win or die trying, that's probably not the authentic inner voice, which is more naive, child or animal like, and won't understand why if it's hurting it shouldn't pull back from the flame. I do wonder whether there are guys (typically but not always guys) whose hormonal dissatisfaction and brain chemistry are so biased towards being unable to rest or go along, that they're set up to burn themselves out just following their natural drives and organic sense of what's fitting. If so, that would count as a condition like ADHD where the brain chemistry is naturally serving as an obstacle, and the authentic inner voice needs a bit of guidance to better serve the overall person. Just because our deepest selves react a certain way doesn't always make it right.

marcc 5y ago

I'm glad you are doing better. I think the author here does understand what burnout is, and was able to notice the symptoms a lot earlier. It shouldn't get to the point of not even being able to decide what to watch on Netflix. Burnout happens, and I think conditions less serious than yours can still be called burnout. Again, really happy you are ok. I hope you are working in an environment that is healthy, and that you are able to prevent burning out again.

paulannesley 5y ago
I think you saw a "doesn't" that wasn't there in the opening line: "This person understands what actual burnout is." The Netflix reference was from the original post.
- marcc 5y ago
  You are right!
Applejinx 5y ago
Thank you :) a number of things helped. Sadly, one of them was the death of my parents (but they were cared for and respected right to the end, and my darker take on their expectations can't hurt them now), and another was cutting ties with some family members. Another thing that helped was Patreon, honestly, and I'll tell you specifically why: formerly I was making products sold commercially. This produced a lot of pressure to have 'hit' products, and a lot of fear when the ideas weren't coming, or when the idea wasn't selling. Going open source and Patreon-supported changed that to a more distributed system that was less bursty: didn't make as much peak money by a factor of three or more, but it was far FAR more predictable. The increasing stability of this has been a huge help. I believe if society instantiated a basic income, that too would help many people avoid burnout, and remain productive, for the same reasons. Over-pressure is real, and damages productivity.
- webmaven 5y ago
  Have you written anything about your experience in "Going open source and Patreon-supported"? Most of the examples I've come across seem to be receiving trivial amounts.

White_Wolf 5y ago

Respect for needing only a few months. I got burned out so bad a few year back (2015-my fist and only time) I was not able to focus on anything for almost 14 months. Still feels surreal thinking about it. Had parts for rebuild my rack and everything in it and was not able to gather my thought to set anything up. I failed to install even a basic ubuntu server in 1-2 tries. Apart from tending to the flowers in the garden, cutting grass and cooking... I was good for nothing. Watching a movie? Autoplay on youtube was it. Just sit there until 2AM watching <random>. Shopping for groceries? good joke. Sleeping? I was dreaming I'm in the office half the time. I had a flipping server chasing me down the rail track a few times because it didn't like the transcoding settings. Eh. Not pleasant but I'm counting it as a lesson in life. I digress. What I'm trying to say is that I envy people that can get out of it so fast.

bserge 5y ago
You should experience burning out and having your ashes ignited (because you can't afford to quit), too. It's sooo much fuuun! Fuck life.
zoomablemind 5y ago
> ...I was dreaming I'm in the office half the time. I had a flipping server chasing me down the rail track a few times because it didn't like the transcoding settings. That sounds like a full on PTSD! Hope you're feeling better since and the "bad chi" got purged from your internal storage, so to speak.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  I'm over it man. Thank you very much. I wish I could say I got over it on my own with sheer will but it was thanks to my wife. She pulled me back bit by bit. As for bad qi... Most of it gone. My biggest regret is that my wife had to go through keeping the house toghether on her own while all of this was happening. P.S. I do apppologise if my thought are a bit messy. That whole aspect of my life is somewhat blurry and only remember some part of it. Looking back it's like watching a bad movie that you can only remember a few really bad scenes from. What I remember very well is that sense of helplessness. I don't wish that to anyone.

tdeck 5y ago

Reading this I'm wondering if I simply lack the willpower to get that burned out. When I start getting miserable and overloaded for a while, I tend to "burn out" in smaller ways and for shorter periods. Maybe I'll just become less productive for a few days or wake up with a massive headache and have to take the day off. I'm not particularly proud of these things but now I wonder if the alternative is worse.

ScoobleDoodle 5y ago
I would call that a blessing in disguise. From my experience the alternative is indeed worse. It’s much better that your pressure valve opens at a lower pressure and forces you to take some time to care for yourself. Rather than letting the pressure build until you break and then not much can be done but wait for the slow process of healing to rebuild you.
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
I feel that, I’m not a lazy slug by any stretch but my company seems to be fine with me and other devs working 40-45h per week. I still get the stress, frustration and weeks of listlessness, then I read these articles about 80h weeks and feel even worse.
Applejinx 5y ago
I don't think it's really a matter of willpower. I experienced multiple burnouts because depression was not an option: I was the black sheep of a demanding and successful family which demanded that I play that role for them, but also demanded that I accept I was really a genius capable of anything, and therefore morally at fault for not achieving everything. I was the chosen one… who'd gone terribly wrong. As such, I was twisted enough that years of therapy was in order, but really could not let go. To me, five minutes not fretting about how I was going to think up brilliant things and conquer the world, was five unacceptable minutes of being horribly lazy. That's not willpower, that's serious mental illness. Burnout is just more evidence that serious mental illness is NOT good for you or your productivity. More pressure, past some indefinable point, does not make you more productive. Any healthy person will rebel, balk, drag their feet and call it whatever (no skin off my nose if you call it burnout). A sufficiently mentally ill person will not be able to rebel, or balk, and will HATE themselves passionately for any moment of feet-dragging, and so they will push harder even while they are miserable… but pay a heavier cost. Think of it as mental rhabdo (for crossfit fans). Because you are so unhealthy you don't respect any of your own limits, you drive your mental muscles into severe organic collapse and end up flooded with poison, and substantially weaker than you were, for a considerable time. It's not failure of will or collapse of attitude, you manage to mentally break yourself until you don't work and can't think or function. Bad news. Willpower won't get you there because willpower doesn't automatically mean self-destruction. 'burning out' in smaller ways is MUCH healthier and better in every respect.

devin 5y ago

When I was in my 20s I feel like I bounced back from burnout in about 6 weeks. At 36 it feels like it's taking quite a bit longer than that. The pandemic certainly hasn't helped.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

This is a good opportunity to point out (to everyone, not just this parent comment) that there is a lot of overlap between burnout and depression. It's a common mistake for people to think that because they can identify the cause of their current state (work-induced burnout from a bad job, for example) that their symptoms can't be from depression. That's not true. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, they overlap heavily both in symptoms and possible treatments. The good news is that many of the techniques designed to address depression, such as CBT, self-guided therapy, exercises, and so on, translate quite effectively to helping with burnout, too. In fact, a burned-out person can pick up a CBT book or sign up with a therapist and drop right into helpful exercises to begin restoring a sense of agency, rebuilding autonomy, unlearning negative thought patterns, and other things that contribute to getting stuck in burnout.

dbcurtis 5y ago
Agreed. Burnout and depression may overlap. In my case, they did not. I’ve been burned out. I’ve been depressed. Burned out is better :) If you think you might be depressed, get some help. Joking aside, for me the therapy is the same for either. I need to selfishly attend to my own agenda for a while, and build something just because. My workshop is my therapy zone. YMMV.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  > My workshop is my therapy zone. Hell yes, I bought like $3k worth of woodworking tools and supplies over the course of 2020 and that was my therapy. And the only actual project I finished is a janky dining table that’s too small for our 3 person family XD
yazaddaruvala 5y ago
Yeah I agree. I always thought burnout and depression were the same thing. How I’ve previously (maybe incorrectly) differentiated is: Disclaimer: Trying to be concise, I understand depression is a spectrum, different for everyone, and a lot more complex than these few words. Depression: You’re basically fried and can’t make decisions in any/all “verticals” (i.e. self-love, romance, professional, etc) not even to leave the house. Burnout / Heartbroken: A subset of depression for a specific vertical in life. Burnout is a depression from a profession, but you still enjoy/can go on dates or hang out with friends. Heartbroken is a depression from romance, but you still enjoy/can work to distract yourself, take up a hobby, etc.

Applejinx 5y ago

Bit of a follow-up: by 'this person' I DO mean the article author, I'm not pointing thumbs at myself and saying 'this guy, am I right?" :D

elevenoh 5y ago

Holy shit. Genuinely curious: if one is listening to their authentic inner voice, would they ever do this to themself?

Applejinx 5y ago
Nope. A healthy personality doesn't do this. (though that does also mean… a healthy personality doesn't end up being the biggest winner, gold-medal holder, best at what they do) If your inner voice is that you MUST win or die trying, that's probably not the authentic inner voice, which is more naive, child or animal like, and won't understand why if it's hurting it shouldn't pull back from the flame. I do wonder whether there are guys (typically but not always guys) whose hormonal dissatisfaction and brain chemistry are so biased towards being unable to rest or go along, that they're set up to burn themselves out just following their natural drives and organic sense of what's fitting. If so, that would count as a condition like ADHD where the brain chemistry is naturally serving as an obstacle, and the authentic inner voice needs a bit of guidance to better serve the overall person. Just because our deepest selves react a certain way doesn't always make it right.