4 ms·

You see an equivalency between discussing new vaccine technologies for a novel virus, and discussing whether the Sun orbits the Earth?

titzer 5y ago
Yeah, when they spout obviously false, easily-checkable things like "it alters your DNA" that are clearly intended to scare people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beerandt 5y ago
  It's a plausible enough mistake to have happened before. Which to me, is good enough reason to not outright dismiss it as "obviously false". Some Polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 for years, and it does, in fact, alter human DNA. For COVID-19, there have been at least 2 major cases of live virus vaccine contamination and recall. In the case of the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil and South Africa, there are claims that at least some made it into patients. And then the "Baltimore Factory" testimony before Congress included company executives admitting to making ~100 million contaminated doses, more than the number of safe doses they had produced. So this "don't mind him, he does conspiracies" attitude isn't doing anything except getting nods from those that don't need convincing, and proving to skeptics that you have a knowledge gap, whether it's ultimately relevant or true (or not). I don't think it's currently happening happening here (at a minimum, adenovirus doesn't alter your DNA), but I also think it's just as reckless to imply that any concerns aren't legitimate or that it's impossible.
  - foldr 5y ago
    The Polio/SV40 thing is itself an antivax talking point (and for the most part a load of nonsense). https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-antivaccine-zombie-meme-sv40-and-cancer-and-polio-oh-my/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-antivaccine-zombie-...
    - beerandt 5y ago
      >antivax talking point (and for the most part a load of nonsense >>polio vaccine administered from 1955–1963 was contaminated with simian virus 40 (SV40). The virus came from the monkey kidney cell cultures used to produce the vaccine. Most, but not all, of the contamination was in the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). Once the contamination was recognized, steps were taken to eliminate it from future vaccines. There have been many questions as to the effects on people who received the contaminated vaccine. SV40 has biological properties consistent with a cancer-causing virus, but researchers have not conclusively established whether or not it could cause cancer in humans. Studies of groups of people who received polio vaccine during 1955–1963 provide evidence of no increased cancer risk. >>However, because these epidemiologic studies are sufficiently flawed, the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to conclude whether or not the contaminated polio vaccine caused cancer. In light of the biological evidence supporting the theory that SV40-contamination of polio vaccines could contribute to human cancers, the committee recommends continued public health attention in the form of policy analysis, communication, and targeted biological research. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK221112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK221112/ That sounds like a load of nonsense? >sciencebasedmedicine dot org >> This one popped up at that online repository of all things quackery, NaturalNews.com lol, pot, meet kettle. Why can't you trust the science? Simian virus 40 DNA sequences in human brain and bone tumours https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9776221/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9776221/ Sequence analyses of human tumor-associated SV40 DNAs and SV40 viral isolates from monkeys and humans https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9584955/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9584955/ Human cytomegalovirus major immediate early gene product can induce SV40 DNA replication in human embryonic lung cells https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2173262/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2173262/ Phylogenetic analysis of polyomavirus simian virus 40 from monkeys and humans reveals genetic variation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15308725/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15308725/ SV40 DNA in human osteosarcomas shows sequence variation among T-antigen genes https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9311596/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9311596/ Natural simian virus 40 strains are present in human choroid plexus and ependymoma tumors https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7571441/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7571441/
      - 5y ago
  - titzer 5y ago
    > Some Polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 for years Right, and the Harvard Mark II had a moth that caused it to malfunction, therefore we can't trust the Apple M1. This is the level of reasoning that anti-vaxers have sunk to. It's deliberate ignorance and sophistry. Anti-vaxers aren't "asking questions". They aren't curious about actual reality. They are very confused people who want to maintain a simplistic (maybe naturalistic, who knows?) worldview and are increasingly twisted in knots and therefore filled with cognitive dissonance. I personally don't like hunting down morons, but when they step on stage and refuse to yield, the should absolutely be mocked, shamed, and embarrassed, maybe even more so that they risk the health and safety of others with their idiocy. They didn't reason themselves into their positions, so I see no reason why we should try to reason them out. Done.

titzer 5y ago

Yeah, when they spout obviously false, easily-checkable things like "it alters your DNA" that are clearly intended to scare people.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
beerandt 5y ago
It's a plausible enough mistake to have happened before. Which to me, is good enough reason to not outright dismiss it as "obviously false". Some Polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 for years, and it does, in fact, alter human DNA. For COVID-19, there have been at least 2 major cases of live virus vaccine contamination and recall. In the case of the Sputnik vaccine in Brazil and South Africa, there are claims that at least some made it into patients. And then the "Baltimore Factory" testimony before Congress included company executives admitting to making ~100 million contaminated doses, more than the number of safe doses they had produced. So this "don't mind him, he does conspiracies" attitude isn't doing anything except getting nods from those that don't need convincing, and proving to skeptics that you have a knowledge gap, whether it's ultimately relevant or true (or not). I don't think it's currently happening happening here (at a minimum, adenovirus doesn't alter your DNA), but I also think it's just as reckless to imply that any concerns aren't legitimate or that it's impossible.
- foldr 5y ago
  The Polio/SV40 thing is itself an antivax talking point (and for the most part a load of nonsense). https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-antivaccine-zombie-meme-sv40-and-cancer-and-polio-oh-my/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-antivaccine-zombie-...
  - beerandt 5y ago
    >antivax talking point (and for the most part a load of nonsense >>polio vaccine administered from 1955–1963 was contaminated with simian virus 40 (SV40). The virus came from the monkey kidney cell cultures used to produce the vaccine. Most, but not all, of the contamination was in the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). Once the contamination was recognized, steps were taken to eliminate it from future vaccines. There have been many questions as to the effects on people who received the contaminated vaccine. SV40 has biological properties consistent with a cancer-causing virus, but researchers have not conclusively established whether or not it could cause cancer in humans. Studies of groups of people who received polio vaccine during 1955–1963 provide evidence of no increased cancer risk. >>However, because these epidemiologic studies are sufficiently flawed, the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to conclude whether or not the contaminated polio vaccine caused cancer. In light of the biological evidence supporting the theory that SV40-contamination of polio vaccines could contribute to human cancers, the committee recommends continued public health attention in the form of policy analysis, communication, and targeted biological research. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK221112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK221112/ That sounds like a load of nonsense? >sciencebasedmedicine dot org >> This one popped up at that online repository of all things quackery, NaturalNews.com lol, pot, meet kettle. Why can't you trust the science? Simian virus 40 DNA sequences in human brain and bone tumours https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9776221/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9776221/ Sequence analyses of human tumor-associated SV40 DNAs and SV40 viral isolates from monkeys and humans https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9584955/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9584955/ Human cytomegalovirus major immediate early gene product can induce SV40 DNA replication in human embryonic lung cells https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2173262/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2173262/ Phylogenetic analysis of polyomavirus simian virus 40 from monkeys and humans reveals genetic variation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15308725/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15308725/ SV40 DNA in human osteosarcomas shows sequence variation among T-antigen genes https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9311596/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9311596/ Natural simian virus 40 strains are present in human choroid plexus and ependymoma tumors https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7571441/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7571441/
    - 5y ago
- titzer 5y ago
  > Some Polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 for years Right, and the Harvard Mark II had a moth that caused it to malfunction, therefore we can't trust the Apple M1. This is the level of reasoning that anti-vaxers have sunk to. It's deliberate ignorance and sophistry. Anti-vaxers aren't "asking questions". They aren't curious about actual reality. They are very confused people who want to maintain a simplistic (maybe naturalistic, who knows?) worldview and are increasingly twisted in knots and therefore filled with cognitive dissonance. I personally don't like hunting down morons, but when they step on stage and refuse to yield, the should absolutely be mocked, shamed, and embarrassed, maybe even more so that they risk the health and safety of others with their idiocy. They didn't reason themselves into their positions, so I see no reason why we should try to reason them out. Done.