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> So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. Huh? No, not w

> So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. Huh? No, not what I said. They seem to try to say they don't bias against a group of people, and then turn around and be passive aggressive against younger devs in Silicon Valley. Age clearly has a bearing. They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people.

kbenson 5y ago
> They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people. Or they're primed to make sure they try to exclude accidental bias, or are just signalling that people that might forego the process under the assumption that they are already biased against give it a go? This is sort of like the whole "Well don't white people matter too" criticism to BLM. Saying something matters or you do something doesn't necessarily imply you don't do something else. They've even gone out of their way to say yes, they hire young people too, but you're still eager to read some slight into it. What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against?
- yupper32 5y ago
  > What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against? Why would they feel unwelcome? On this post, I'd feel unwelcomed as a young person. Which, whatever, I don't actually care beyond having a conversation about it. I'd just not apply. Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > Why would they feel unwelcome? I can't but feel this is a problem of you being uninformed. I don't know if that's because of what I presume is relative inexperience in the industry and lack of exposure to the problem based on your age, and I'm not trying to be flippant or denigrate, but there's a widely known and acknowledged problem of ageism in this industry. So widely known and acknowledged, that those that try to cut through the problem feel the need to advertise like this. You can search on HN[1], or elsewhere for more info. 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism
    - yupper32 5y ago
      I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism is a problem. But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. I get that it's a PR thing. This makes them stand out, and get to the top of HN. I just can't imagine being a young person and applying to this posting (if I wanted to and was qualified).
      - kbenson 5y ago
        > I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism isn't a problem. Because you're making statements that seem to indicate you don't understand how it works. > But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? Because that's how discrimination works. When you feel your effort might be wasted, sometimes you are much more considerate of where you spend that effort. Sometimes you don't spend it at all. > They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. No, they don't. The alternative may very well be people assuming there's no place for them in the market, so they stay at their current job even if unhappy or underpaid. Signalling to people that might be under the impression they have no place at your company that they actually might is worthwhile in many people's eyes. This is a discrimination issue. Would you have the same perception if we were discussing women, or minorities, or people with disabilities? If you're a man, does "We hire women. (And men too.)" also make you think that you have no place at that company, or make you think they are trying to encourage diversity?
        yupper32 5y ago
        > If you're a man, does "We hire women. (And men too.)" also make you think that you have no place at that company, or make you think they are trying to encourage diversity? If a specific job listing said that, then no. It'd clearly be a listing trying to get more gender diversity, of which I do not help. For a real life example, there was a Google internship program back in the day that was specifically geared towards under-represented people. It mentioned in the posting that anyone could apply, but why would I? I'm a white straight male. I don't fit into that program.
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    > Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply. As a white person, I don't understand; why wouldn't you apply?
    - yupper32 5y ago
      If they specifically mention race in the listing, then it's probably a program specifically meant to help a company's diversity. I definitely do not fall into that category, and would feel that I'm actively hurting that effort by applying. And then if they turned around and also said "Unlike Silicon Valley, we aren't racist" then I'd just be uncomfortable with the whole thing. Not a perfect 1:1 comparison here, but hopefully it makes sense.

kbenson 5y ago

> They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people. Or they're primed to make sure they try to exclude accidental bias, or are just signalling that people that might forego the process under the assumption that they are already biased against give it a go? This is sort of like the whole "Well don't white people matter too" criticism to BLM. Saying something matters or you do something doesn't necessarily imply you don't do something else. They've even gone out of their way to say yes, they hire young people too, but you're still eager to read some slight into it. What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against?

yupper32 5y ago
> What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against? Why would they feel unwelcome? On this post, I'd feel unwelcomed as a young person. Which, whatever, I don't actually care beyond having a conversation about it. I'd just not apply. Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > Why would they feel unwelcome? I can't but feel this is a problem of you being uninformed. I don't know if that's because of what I presume is relative inexperience in the industry and lack of exposure to the problem based on your age, and I'm not trying to be flippant or denigrate, but there's a widely known and acknowledged problem of ageism in this industry. So widely known and acknowledged, that those that try to cut through the problem feel the need to advertise like this. You can search on HN[1], or elsewhere for more info. 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism
  - yupper32 5y ago
    I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism is a problem. But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. I get that it's a PR thing. This makes them stand out, and get to the top of HN. I just can't imagine being a young person and applying to this posting (if I wanted to and was qualified).
    - kbenson 5y ago
      > I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism isn't a problem. Because you're making statements that seem to indicate you don't understand how it works. > But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? Because that's how discrimination works. When you feel your effort might be wasted, sometimes you are much more considerate of where you spend that effort. Sometimes you don't spend it at all. > They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. No, they don't. The alternative may very well be people assuming there's no place for them in the market, so they stay at their current job even if unhappy or underpaid. Signalling to people that might be under the impression they have no place at your company that they actually might is worthwhile in many people's eyes. This is a discrimination issue. Would you have the same perception if we were discussing women, or minorities, or people with disabilities? If you're a man, does "We hire women. (And men too.)" also make you think that you have no place at that company, or make you think they are trying to encourage diversity?
      - yupper32 5y ago
        > If you're a man, does "We hire women. (And men too.)" also make you think that you have no place at that company, or make you think they are trying to encourage diversity? If a specific job listing said that, then no. It'd clearly be a listing trying to get more gender diversity, of which I do not help. For a real life example, there was a Google internship program back in the day that was specifically geared towards under-represented people. It mentioned in the posting that anyone could apply, but why would I? I'm a white straight male. I don't fit into that program.
- meepmorp 5y ago
  > Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply. As a white person, I don't understand; why wouldn't you apply?
  - yupper32 5y ago
    If they specifically mention race in the listing, then it's probably a program specifically meant to help a company's diversity. I definitely do not fall into that category, and would feel that I'm actively hurting that effort by applying. And then if they turned around and also said "Unlike Silicon Valley, we aren't racist" then I'd just be uncomfortable with the whole thing. Not a perfect 1:1 comparison here, but hopefully it makes sense.