7 ms·

Younger people have more to prove, have nothing to lose, have no understanding of the politics of work - all that makes it easier to "extract more" from them -

by herval 5y ago

Younger people have more to prove, have nothing to lose, have no understanding of the politics of work - all that makes it easier to "extract more" from them - in particular new grads, who are "blank slates" you can train to your culture very easily. This may sound very cynical, but it's literally how big consultancies (not only in tech) define their hiring strategies - PwC being one of the prime examples, where new hires already come in expecting to have a bad and underpaid experience, in exchange for a strong label in the CV

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract. Not when multiplied by number of hours foolishly spent on employer interests while caught up in the competitive frenzy with effectively zero other obligations.
  - irrational 5y ago
    I have far fewer obligations in my 50s than I did in my 30s. Kids are gone, I’m happily married and not in the dating scene, I am settled in a home. Other than work and hanging out with my wife, I don’t have anything else going on. But back when I was dating and then had young kids and then even older kids (with all of their activities) I had a ton more obligations outside of work. It started going down in my mid 40s and now I’m totally free. I don’t intend to retire for 15-20 more years, that is a lot of years of zero obligations someone could get out of me.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      Allow me to count the number of over 50 year olds I crossed paths with while burning the midnight oil Getting Shit Done crunching at the office... The only time those offices had lights on after hours were when the cleaning people occupied them. My assumption has been even after the nest empties these folks have better things to do like relaxing in their preferred home(s), eating their preferred meals, sleeping in their preferred bed, all accompanied by their preferred people. They have substantial obligations to self, and feel entitled to that having put in their time in years past. Young people suck at setting boundaries let alone enforcing them. Older people generally take better care of themselves and don't fall for the infantilizing exploits of "startup culture".
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        Yes, and likely got things done before leaving for the day.
      - syshum 5y ago
        I thought the idea that "work" could only be done in the "office" died?
      - aeroclassics 5y ago
        You must not be counting where I am! I can assure you that I am the oldest developer in the company, certainly in the US. I have been with my current employer for a bit over 9 years. I have worked many, many days until 2100, 2200, plus weekends. I do what needs to get done. I am 64yo and while it is harder on me to go 70-80 hours/week, than when I was 30, I routinely put in 50-55 hours/week. Companies need to wake up and look at some of the best resources out there. The over 50 crowd! But they don't. When I was laid off in late 2008 it took me nearly 2 years to find a contract job until the position opened up with my current employer.
        labiblio 5y ago
        Same for me. End of 2008 laid off from systems engineering in global mobile device and services industry. After some consulting work I went back to coding/sw design(which I did from 1983 to 2000) but had always kept up with transitions to web stack and all the current stuff. I’d get oh you haven’t used the exact tools in our tool chain for at least 3 years. Geez, I only had to learn and participate in defining process and tool chain for so many times. Zuckerberg boo!
      - jeremyrbrown 5y ago
        Why Could you not finish your work during normal hours?
    - nimbusgb 5y ago
      And yet here I am at 5:30 am on a Saturday in front of my PC taking a break from some coding. Probably 4 hours before my 24 year old son even stirs from his pit.
- herval 5y ago
  Yes and no - more experienced people have more to _impart_, because they've been there, generally know what to focus on, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean they're eager to just put up with anything or just "play along" most cultures, and IMO that's key to a lot of the disguised ageism in the industry. With experience, you also you bring along your own set of practices and habits accrued through the years, which _may_ be good or bad, but do introduce "drag" on the system. When organizations talk about "strong culture" or "strong focus", that's really corporatespeak for "compliance" - "we do things this way" - and ageism is a very direct symptom of that. That and there's no better place where you can cast a wide net to catch large amounts of people, with a repeatable cadence and well defined bar, than a university/bootcamp group/education program of any sort. If you're playing a numbers game (eg recruiters that get paid per hire, managers that get rewarded for empire building, etc), nothing can beat that "pipeline".
  - UncleOxidant 5y ago
    I'll go a little further and say that more experienced engineers are just not as likely to put up with bullshit. If you've been in the industry long enough you've seen plenty of it from management, marketing, charismatic startup CEOs, etc. You've seen it lead to death marches, dangerous products, wasted effort, burnout. And you're just more likely to call it out and/or object. Most company cultures just don't like that - they want everyone to play along and pretend there's no problem with the plan from on high. They like the NCGs because they're very unlikely to object (in addition to being willing to work for a lot less).
    - ornornor 5y ago
      > You've seen it lead to death marches, dangerous products, wasted effort, burnout. And you're just more likely to call it out and/or object. I’m not 50-60 but so this already. I still haven’t found a way to prevent people from inserting me into these train wreck projects. I call it out, it’s ignored, I’m labeled “not a team player”, and end up on most managers shit list.

by herval 5y ago

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract.

pengaru 5y ago
> That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract. Not when multiplied by number of hours foolishly spent on employer interests while caught up in the competitive frenzy with effectively zero other obligations.
- irrational 5y ago
  I have far fewer obligations in my 50s than I did in my 30s. Kids are gone, I’m happily married and not in the dating scene, I am settled in a home. Other than work and hanging out with my wife, I don’t have anything else going on. But back when I was dating and then had young kids and then even older kids (with all of their activities) I had a ton more obligations outside of work. It started going down in my mid 40s and now I’m totally free. I don’t intend to retire for 15-20 more years, that is a lot of years of zero obligations someone could get out of me.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    Allow me to count the number of over 50 year olds I crossed paths with while burning the midnight oil Getting Shit Done crunching at the office... The only time those offices had lights on after hours were when the cleaning people occupied them. My assumption has been even after the nest empties these folks have better things to do like relaxing in their preferred home(s), eating their preferred meals, sleeping in their preferred bed, all accompanied by their preferred people. They have substantial obligations to self, and feel entitled to that having put in their time in years past. Young people suck at setting boundaries let alone enforcing them. Older people generally take better care of themselves and don't fall for the infantilizing exploits of "startup culture".
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Yes, and likely got things done before leaving for the day.
    - syshum 5y ago
      I thought the idea that "work" could only be done in the "office" died?
    - aeroclassics 5y ago
      You must not be counting where I am! I can assure you that I am the oldest developer in the company, certainly in the US. I have been with my current employer for a bit over 9 years. I have worked many, many days until 2100, 2200, plus weekends. I do what needs to get done. I am 64yo and while it is harder on me to go 70-80 hours/week, than when I was 30, I routinely put in 50-55 hours/week. Companies need to wake up and look at some of the best resources out there. The over 50 crowd! But they don't. When I was laid off in late 2008 it took me nearly 2 years to find a contract job until the position opened up with my current employer.
      - labiblio 5y ago
        Same for me. End of 2008 laid off from systems engineering in global mobile device and services industry. After some consulting work I went back to coding/sw design(which I did from 1983 to 2000) but had always kept up with transitions to web stack and all the current stuff. I’d get oh you haven’t used the exact tools in our tool chain for at least 3 years. Geez, I only had to learn and participate in defining process and tool chain for so many times. Zuckerberg boo!
    - jeremyrbrown 5y ago
      Why Could you not finish your work during normal hours?
  - nimbusgb 5y ago
    And yet here I am at 5:30 am on a Saturday in front of my PC taking a break from some coding. Probably 4 hours before my 24 year old son even stirs from his pit.
herval 5y ago
Yes and no - more experienced people have more to _impart_, because they've been there, generally know what to focus on, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean they're eager to just put up with anything or just "play along" most cultures, and IMO that's key to a lot of the disguised ageism in the industry. With experience, you also you bring along your own set of practices and habits accrued through the years, which _may_ be good or bad, but do introduce "drag" on the system. When organizations talk about "strong culture" or "strong focus", that's really corporatespeak for "compliance" - "we do things this way" - and ageism is a very direct symptom of that. That and there's no better place where you can cast a wide net to catch large amounts of people, with a repeatable cadence and well defined bar, than a university/bootcamp group/education program of any sort. If you're playing a numbers game (eg recruiters that get paid per hire, managers that get rewarded for empire building, etc), nothing can beat that "pipeline".
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  I'll go a little further and say that more experienced engineers are just not as likely to put up with bullshit. If you've been in the industry long enough you've seen plenty of it from management, marketing, charismatic startup CEOs, etc. You've seen it lead to death marches, dangerous products, wasted effort, burnout. And you're just more likely to call it out and/or object. Most company cultures just don't like that - they want everyone to play along and pretend there's no problem with the plan from on high. They like the NCGs because they're very unlikely to object (in addition to being willing to work for a lot less).
  - ornornor 5y ago
    > You've seen it lead to death marches, dangerous products, wasted effort, burnout. And you're just more likely to call it out and/or object. I’m not 50-60 but so this already. I still haven’t found a way to prevent people from inserting me into these train wreck projects. I call it out, it’s ignored, I’m labeled “not a team player”, and end up on most managers shit list.