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Why do I feel uncomfortable with this listing? Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls t

Why do I feel uncomfortable with this listing? Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Maybe it's because I work with plenty of "older" devs in Silicon Valley? Or that I think the two-jobs-at-once hiring process is horrible? I probably shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it, but I do. I guess the ad isn't for me, though.

draw_down 5y ago
There isn’t anything wrong with it
kbenson 5y ago
> Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. > Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Some people or organizations really are though. They exist. Google are experts on search. I don't think anyone could support an argument against that adequately. > Maybe it's because I work with plenty of "older" devs in Silicon Valley? How old? The author of the post chimed in above, and they're close to 60. Is that about what you were expecting, or quite a bit older? > Or that I think the two-jobs-at-once hiring process is horrible? That's not a requirement, that's a relaxation of a requirement that allows more people to try out. Think the person working a non-tech job or working a current consulting gig that will end soon as well as those looking to switch from a current full time employment. As long as those people don't have legal requirements requiring they don't work elsewhere, I'm not sure what's the problem with letting people manage their own time for this stage.
- yupper32 5y ago
  > So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. Huh? No, not what I said. They seem to try to say they don't bias against a group of people, and then turn around and be passive aggressive against younger devs in Silicon Valley. Age clearly has a bearing. They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people. Or they're primed to make sure they try to exclude accidental bias, or are just signalling that people that might forego the process under the assumption that they are already biased against give it a go? This is sort of like the whole "Well don't white people matter too" criticism to BLM. Saying something matters or you do something doesn't necessarily imply you don't do something else. They've even gone out of their way to say yes, they hire young people too, but you're still eager to read some slight into it. What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against?
    - yupper32 5y ago
      > What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against? Why would they feel unwelcome? On this post, I'd feel unwelcomed as a young person. Which, whatever, I don't actually care beyond having a conversation about it. I'd just not apply. Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply.
      - kbenson 5y ago
        > Why would they feel unwelcome? I can't but feel this is a problem of you being uninformed. I don't know if that's because of what I presume is relative inexperience in the industry and lack of exposure to the problem based on your age, and I'm not trying to be flippant or denigrate, but there's a widely known and acknowledged problem of ageism in this industry. So widely known and acknowledged, that those that try to cut through the problem feel the need to advertise like this. You can search on HN[1], or elsewhere for more info. 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism
        yupper32 5y ago
        I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism is a problem. But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. I get that it's a PR thing. This makes them stand out, and get to the top of HN. I just can't imagine being a young person and applying to this posting (if I wanted to and was qualified).
partdavid 5y ago
I'm old as well and I'm uncomfortable with it. The tone is kind of passive-aggressive and although this extended temp-to-hire thing is paid, it also rubs me the wrong way; like you, I can't completely say why. I'd be curious to see if it works for people, though (I kind of suspect it won't because of the time investment involved but who knows). It's also hard to explain but by coupling the "we hire old people" with "but we're not actually hiring you, just putting you through an extended probation with no benefits, security, or investment" it kind feels like the opposite of inclusive. It's a whiff, you know, it's their company, they can hire how they like, but it's weird to focus on one form of illegal discrimination they don't engage in and follow it up with extra hiring hoops.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  They’re looking for a very specific skill set. Just any good coder is not gonna do. Contracts are tailor-made for this situation. Great way to get started at low risk to both parties.

draw_down 5y ago

There isn’t anything wrong with it

kbenson 5y ago

> Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. > Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Some people or organizations really are though. They exist. Google are experts on search. I don't think anyone could support an argument against that adequately. > Maybe it's because I work with plenty of "older" devs in Silicon Valley? How old? The author of the post chimed in above, and they're close to 60. Is that about what you were expecting, or quite a bit older? > Or that I think the two-jobs-at-once hiring process is horrible? That's not a requirement, that's a relaxation of a requirement that allows more people to try out. Think the person working a non-tech job or working a current consulting gig that will end soon as well as those looking to switch from a current full time employment. As long as those people don't have legal requirements requiring they don't work elsewhere, I'm not sure what's the problem with letting people manage their own time for this stage.

yupper32 5y ago
> So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. Huh? No, not what I said. They seem to try to say they don't bias against a group of people, and then turn around and be passive aggressive against younger devs in Silicon Valley. Age clearly has a bearing. They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people. Or they're primed to make sure they try to exclude accidental bias, or are just signalling that people that might forego the process under the assumption that they are already biased against give it a go? This is sort of like the whole "Well don't white people matter too" criticism to BLM. Saying something matters or you do something doesn't necessarily imply you don't do something else. They've even gone out of their way to say yes, they hire young people too, but you're still eager to read some slight into it. What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against?
  - yupper32 5y ago
    > What way would you advertise this position such that older developers felt welcome that you think wouldn't cause you to feel biased against? Why would they feel unwelcome? On this post, I'd feel unwelcomed as a young person. Which, whatever, I don't actually care beyond having a conversation about it. I'd just not apply. Likewise, as a white person if a posting said "We hire black people!" then I'd be like "alright I guess this isn't really for me" and not apply.
    - kbenson 5y ago
      > Why would they feel unwelcome? I can't but feel this is a problem of you being uninformed. I don't know if that's because of what I presume is relative inexperience in the industry and lack of exposure to the problem based on your age, and I'm not trying to be flippant or denigrate, but there's a widely known and acknowledged problem of ageism in this industry. So widely known and acknowledged, that those that try to cut through the problem feel the need to advertise like this. You can search on HN[1], or elsewhere for more info. 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ageism
      - yupper32 5y ago
        I don't know why you think I don't understand that ageism is a problem. But if they're in the market for a job, and they have experience with Postgres internals, why would they not apply to this if it otherwise seemed promising? They have to apply to somewhere and they presumably have many years of experience applying to jobs and such. I get that it's a PR thing. This makes them stand out, and get to the top of HN. I just can't imagine being a young person and applying to this posting (if I wanted to and was qualified).

partdavid 5y ago

I'm old as well and I'm uncomfortable with it. The tone is kind of passive-aggressive and although this extended temp-to-hire thing is paid, it also rubs me the wrong way; like you, I can't completely say why. I'd be curious to see if it works for people, though (I kind of suspect it won't because of the time investment involved but who knows). It's also hard to explain but by coupling the "we hire old people" with "but we're not actually hiring you, just putting you through an extended probation with no benefits, security, or investment" it kind feels like the opposite of inclusive. It's a whiff, you know, it's their company, they can hire how they like, but it's weird to focus on one form of illegal discrimination they don't engage in and follow it up with extra hiring hoops.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
They’re looking for a very specific skill set. Just any good coder is not gonna do. Contracts are tailor-made for this situation. Great way to get started at low risk to both parties.