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It's absolutely ridiculous that Macs don't come with a 3 year warranty by default. I've bought maybe a dozen macs in the last 15 years (for myself and the fami

by pier25 5y ago

It's absolutely ridiculous that Macs don't come with a 3 year warranty by default. I've bought maybe a dozen macs in the last 15 years (for myself and the family) and while some have lasted many years without issues, some have died on me on the second or third year. Because the initial investment is so high you're practically forced to add extra Apple Care to protect it because there's a 20-30% chance you will have problems during those first years. And don't get me started on design issues and recalls which take years. When my 2011 MBP died because of Radeongate it took Apple 2 years to start a recall and replace the GPU. The honest thing to do would have been to take the machine and offer 60% of its value in credit towards a new Mac. Instead, Apple replaced the GPU on a machine that was already a couple of gens behind and I couldn't sell without practically giving it away because (rightfully) nobody wanted the 15'' 2011 models. That MBP was probably the worst investment of my life.

Macha 5y ago
In the EU, there's a _seller_ obligation for 2 years for items in the same class as laptop to ensure they are free from defects and fit for purpose. It won't help you if _you_ break your laptop, and after 6 months the burden of proof in the event of a dispute switches from the seller to the buyer, but I feel like pretty much all the issues the OP encountered would be covered under this. A lot of add on warranties don't cover much more than this anyway, which makes them much harder to justify here.
asdff 5y ago
My macbook air died one month out of the yearlong warranty. In their troubleshooting at the apple store they managed to wipe the device and still couldn't breath life into it or figure out what happened. >$400 flat rate repair and they didn't even offer me a loaner in the mean time while the computer was mailed off. I would think apple could compete on customer service with the shade tree mechanic and their loaner car but I guess not.
- morcheeba 5y ago
  I had the opposite experience. My macbook air battery was dying, so I paid the $129 to replace it. When I got the computer back, it wouldn't charge. So, they replaced the motherboard. I got it back and it still wouldn't charge - so they handed me a brand-new next-gen macbook air. Inconvenient, sure, but exceeded my expectations. I've found they've been generous with battery replacements.
  - asdff 5y ago
    I've found the opposite. Before that computer bricked itself I noticed capacity was fading fast. Apparently apples threshold was if you are under 85% within a year of ownership you have a defective battery, according to the customer service agent I was chatting with. So they had me open up system profiler and we confirmed my battery was well within threshold for replacement, and they set me up with an appointment. I took it to the apple store and told them what the Apple customer service representative told me about the battery being defective. They ended up running a battery test using their internal tooling and surprise surprise, it turned out a different capacity number than system profiler said I had, and it happened to be just above the threshold for replacement. 1 year of use for full time work should not mean losing 15% of your battery capacity, but evidently according to apple this was in spec.
- zzt123 5y ago
  This is why I either buy Applecare or equivalent (depending on product) if it's mission critical, or buy using a card that extends the warranty by at least one year, such as the Chase Sapphire cards.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  They have a 14 day return on all laptops, you can pick your own loaner off the shelf.
  - asdff 5y ago
    I'll have to keep in mind the $1200 deposit for loaner computers next time I am in need of a critical repair
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Charge it to a credit card and then the charge will get reversed when you return the item, and you won't have to worry about it. Just providing a solution here that works easily (not that the problem and solution need to exist).
    - brianwawok 5y ago
      Credit cards should be 30 days to invoice you, will be returned before that
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    And if 14 days isn't enough, it's 30 days when ordered online depending on the country.
emeraldd 5y ago
My experience with Dell laptops seems to match up with your experience on the MBP. If something is going to fail, it will usually fail immediately or last the "lifetime" of the device. Batteries being the main exception as those age out fast ..
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I'm actually becoming a fan of factory refurbished for these same reasons. I'd rather have something that's been shaken down, repaired for the problems that appeared, recertified, and shipped back out.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    Depends on the manufacturer. I've had good luck with Dell's refurbs and outlet store over the years. On the other hand I bought a refurb projector from BenQ and it was straight up junk. The focusing mechanism breaks easily. It's quite clear this is a design flaw, I assume a gear that's weak plastic that should be something more durable instead. I've sent it back twice now to have it fixed, paying shipping each time under their terms. The last time I got it back it died with just 15 hours of use. It's clear they knew this thing was a straight up lemon and just used their refurb program to dump the product. It certainly means I'll never touch another BenQ product so long as I live.
    - CTOSian 5y ago
      +1 from me for Dell's refurbs (from their outlet).
- DLay 5y ago
  The one thing I really miss about my Dell laptop is being able to call support and having them overnight ship replacement parts so the tech can come over to my place the next afternoon and fix it. The next available service appointment for someone at the Apple Store to take a look at my MacBook Pro’s malfunctioning keyboard won’t be until 4:20PM next week.
sombremesa 5y ago
> Because the initial investment is so high you're practically forced to add extra Apple Care to protect it because there's a 20-30% chance you will have problems during those first years. Here's the inverse argument: it's absolutely ridiculous I have to pay 20-30% extra for my Macbook even though I don't care about the mandatory 3-year warranty. They should let me opt out for a discount! Well, they do. > you're practically forced to add extra Apple Care Are you really pro-freedom (see argument above), or just anti-Apple?
- 0x0 5y ago
  Or, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous that they sell broken stuff and then want to charge you more for you to receive a working product that you paid for in the first place. Maybe they should try to engineer things so that they don't break within a reasonable time frame under normal wear&tear. Would save money for both themselves and the customer in the end.
  - sombremesa 5y ago
    > Maybe they should try to engineer things so that they don't break within a reasonable time frame under normal wear&tear. Would save money for both themselves and the customer in the end. You sound pretty confident, but just think about this: do you really know more about how Apple should be run than all of their executives combined, or is there a false assumption here?
- gmac 5y ago
  If you make them guarantee it for three years (or perhaps five) you give them a stronger incentive to build it to last, and you can be sure it’s going to last that long. There’s a strong environmental (public good) aspect to this, so no, you should not be able to opt out. I find it even more ridiculous that big items like fridges, ovens, and washing machines are also often only guaranteed one year. I think a ten year minimum would be reasonable for white goods.
  - niij 5y ago
    Why stop at 10? Is there some mechanical threshold we can't design around at that point? I'd propose 20 years should be the minimum.. unless you hate the environment.
coldtea 5y ago
>It's absolutely ridiculous that Macs don't come with a 3 year warranty by default. Government should mandate that, as in does in other countries. But many american consumers don't believe in government rules about consumer protection, lest some of this "innovation" we've witnessed is discouraged...
- vondur 5y ago
  I doubt everyone would want to pay the extra 20-30% more that Apple would charge to cover this.
  - wmf 5y ago
    Apple charges more like 15% for extended warranty.
  - mola 5y ago
    OP seem to pay this premium indirectly anyway. So I guess people would pay that premium. Like they pay premium for mac's anyway. The regulation for warranty just means sellers need to actually provide the quality the brand induces
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    Thats why apple would eat most or all of the cost without passing it on to consumers or would make more reliable laptops. The laptops are already priced at what the market would bear and apple makes huge profits.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      Nah. You're forgetting that that this is Apple. There would be an announcement that for new Macs you will be required to purchase 3 years of AppleCare+ to have the best possible experience. People will bitch for a few months but eventually it'll die down and Apple will get to market the current price as the base price while charing 30% more.
      - 5y ago
savant_penguin 5y ago
Is it really? People still buy them in droves. As much as I hate devices I can't fix (and this makes the short warranty times problem even worse), many people don't seem to care.
mola 5y ago
Why did you keep buying macs then?
- pier25 5y ago
  It took a long time for me to understand all this. I bought my last Mac 3 years ago. I'm still using an iMac which I'm really happy with, but I will most likely not buy another Mac again. My machine for gaming and other hobbies is an AMD with Windows, and once this iMac dies I will probably switch to Linux for my work machine.
bengale 5y ago
6 years in the UK.
- Closi 5y ago
  Not quite - I'm from the UK too and I believe we have 6 years to file a claim that shows that the item was defective when we received it, not that it developed a defect. Before 6 months it is assumed that if a defect develops, it was there when it was delivered. After 6 months the onus is on the person who brought it to show that the defect was there when it was delivered. Importantly - there is no expectation in law that the item has to last 6 years.
  - loftyal 5y ago
    This. I have a 4 year old MBP with a screen issue that's obviously not my fault. Apple refuses to fix it.
nicce 5y ago
The most relesellers in my country give 3-5 years of warranty for MacBooks. I guess things are good here.
bigbob2 5y ago
My significant other owned a 2011 MBP and experienced the same thing... She didn't know about the recall and I didn't get a chance to investigate and find out until after the recall window was closed. I can't really avoid using a Mac for work, but for personal use it has definitely trained me to avoid Apple products when at all possible. She would concur with you that her 2011 MBP was a terrible investment.
chadcmulligan 5y ago
> a 3 year warranty by default come to australia, consumer guarantees give you a 3 year warranty. In fact my MacBook Pro gave up the ghost a few weeks after the 3 years had expired, Apple replaced the bits under warranty.
- greenknight 5y ago
  Yep and they still try to push applecare+ onto customers.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
IIRC you can now buy AppleCare as a subscription which you could possibly try gamle - buy only after something breaks..? Or just buy 1 year a piece.
zippergz 5y ago
It's just anecdata, but I've been using Mac laptops since the mid 90s, have never bought AppleCare, and have never regretted that. I've never had an out of warranty repair. On a couple I have replaced the battery myself after several years, at a cost much lower than what AppleCare would have been on that one machine. Yes, it's possible that some day I will end up with a lemon that needs a ton of work. But I think that over 20 years of savings on not buying AppleCare more than covers it (I would have bought a new machine before sinking in anywhere near $10k in repairs).

by pier25 5y ago

Macha 5y ago

In the EU, there's a _seller_ obligation for 2 years for items in the same class as laptop to ensure they are free from defects and fit for purpose. It won't help you if _you_ break your laptop, and after 6 months the burden of proof in the event of a dispute switches from the seller to the buyer, but I feel like pretty much all the issues the OP encountered would be covered under this. A lot of add on warranties don't cover much more than this anyway, which makes them much harder to justify here.

asdff 5y ago

My macbook air died one month out of the yearlong warranty. In their troubleshooting at the apple store they managed to wipe the device and still couldn't breath life into it or figure out what happened. >$400 flat rate repair and they didn't even offer me a loaner in the mean time while the computer was mailed off. I would think apple could compete on customer service with the shade tree mechanic and their loaner car but I guess not.

morcheeba 5y ago
I had the opposite experience. My macbook air battery was dying, so I paid the $129 to replace it. When I got the computer back, it wouldn't charge. So, they replaced the motherboard. I got it back and it still wouldn't charge - so they handed me a brand-new next-gen macbook air. Inconvenient, sure, but exceeded my expectations. I've found they've been generous with battery replacements.
- asdff 5y ago
  I've found the opposite. Before that computer bricked itself I noticed capacity was fading fast. Apparently apples threshold was if you are under 85% within a year of ownership you have a defective battery, according to the customer service agent I was chatting with. So they had me open up system profiler and we confirmed my battery was well within threshold for replacement, and they set me up with an appointment. I took it to the apple store and told them what the Apple customer service representative told me about the battery being defective. They ended up running a battery test using their internal tooling and surprise surprise, it turned out a different capacity number than system profiler said I had, and it happened to be just above the threshold for replacement. 1 year of use for full time work should not mean losing 15% of your battery capacity, but evidently according to apple this was in spec.
zzt123 5y ago
This is why I either buy Applecare or equivalent (depending on product) if it's mission critical, or buy using a card that extends the warranty by at least one year, such as the Chase Sapphire cards.
brianwawok 5y ago
They have a 14 day return on all laptops, you can pick your own loaner off the shelf.
- asdff 5y ago
  I'll have to keep in mind the $1200 deposit for loaner computers next time I am in need of a critical repair
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Charge it to a credit card and then the charge will get reversed when you return the item, and you won't have to worry about it. Just providing a solution here that works easily (not that the problem and solution need to exist).
  - brianwawok 5y ago
    Credit cards should be 30 days to invoice you, will be returned before that
- t0mas88 5y ago
  And if 14 days isn't enough, it's 30 days when ordered online depending on the country.

emeraldd 5y ago

My experience with Dell laptops seems to match up with your experience on the MBP. If something is going to fail, it will usually fail immediately or last the "lifetime" of the device. Batteries being the main exception as those age out fast ..

ethbr0 5y ago
I'm actually becoming a fan of factory refurbished for these same reasons. I'd rather have something that's been shaken down, repaired for the problems that appeared, recertified, and shipped back out.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  Depends on the manufacturer. I've had good luck with Dell's refurbs and outlet store over the years. On the other hand I bought a refurb projector from BenQ and it was straight up junk. The focusing mechanism breaks easily. It's quite clear this is a design flaw, I assume a gear that's weak plastic that should be something more durable instead. I've sent it back twice now to have it fixed, paying shipping each time under their terms. The last time I got it back it died with just 15 hours of use. It's clear they knew this thing was a straight up lemon and just used their refurb program to dump the product. It certainly means I'll never touch another BenQ product so long as I live.
  - CTOSian 5y ago
    +1 from me for Dell's refurbs (from their outlet).
DLay 5y ago
The one thing I really miss about my Dell laptop is being able to call support and having them overnight ship replacement parts so the tech can come over to my place the next afternoon and fix it. The next available service appointment for someone at the Apple Store to take a look at my MacBook Pro’s malfunctioning keyboard won’t be until 4:20PM next week.

sombremesa 5y ago

> Because the initial investment is so high you're practically forced to add extra Apple Care to protect it because there's a 20-30% chance you will have problems during those first years. Here's the inverse argument: it's absolutely ridiculous I have to pay 20-30% extra for my Macbook even though I don't care about the mandatory 3-year warranty. They should let me opt out for a discount! Well, they do. > you're practically forced to add extra Apple Care Are you really pro-freedom (see argument above), or just anti-Apple?

0x0 5y ago
Or, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous that they sell broken stuff and then want to charge you more for you to receive a working product that you paid for in the first place. Maybe they should try to engineer things so that they don't break within a reasonable time frame under normal wear&tear. Would save money for both themselves and the customer in the end.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  > Maybe they should try to engineer things so that they don't break within a reasonable time frame under normal wear&tear. Would save money for both themselves and the customer in the end. You sound pretty confident, but just think about this: do you really know more about how Apple should be run than all of their executives combined, or is there a false assumption here?
gmac 5y ago
If you make them guarantee it for three years (or perhaps five) you give them a stronger incentive to build it to last, and you can be sure it’s going to last that long. There’s a strong environmental (public good) aspect to this, so no, you should not be able to opt out. I find it even more ridiculous that big items like fridges, ovens, and washing machines are also often only guaranteed one year. I think a ten year minimum would be reasonable for white goods.
- niij 5y ago
  Why stop at 10? Is there some mechanical threshold we can't design around at that point? I'd propose 20 years should be the minimum.. unless you hate the environment.

coldtea 5y ago

>It's absolutely ridiculous that Macs don't come with a 3 year warranty by default. Government should mandate that, as in does in other countries. But many american consumers don't believe in government rules about consumer protection, lest some of this "innovation" we've witnessed is discouraged...

vondur 5y ago
I doubt everyone would want to pay the extra 20-30% more that Apple would charge to cover this.
- wmf 5y ago
  Apple charges more like 15% for extended warranty.
- mola 5y ago
  OP seem to pay this premium indirectly anyway. So I guess people would pay that premium. Like they pay premium for mac's anyway. The regulation for warranty just means sellers need to actually provide the quality the brand induces
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Thats why apple would eat most or all of the cost without passing it on to consumers or would make more reliable laptops. The laptops are already priced at what the market would bear and apple makes huge profits.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Nah. You're forgetting that that this is Apple. There would be an announcement that for new Macs you will be required to purchase 3 years of AppleCare+ to have the best possible experience. People will bitch for a few months but eventually it'll die down and Apple will get to market the current price as the base price while charing 30% more.
    - 5y ago

savant_penguin 5y ago

Is it really? People still buy them in droves. As much as I hate devices I can't fix (and this makes the short warranty times problem even worse), many people don't seem to care.

mola 5y ago

Why did you keep buying macs then?

pier25 5y ago
It took a long time for me to understand all this. I bought my last Mac 3 years ago. I'm still using an iMac which I'm really happy with, but I will most likely not buy another Mac again. My machine for gaming and other hobbies is an AMD with Windows, and once this iMac dies I will probably switch to Linux for my work machine.

bengale 5y ago

6 years in the UK.

Closi 5y ago
Not quite - I'm from the UK too and I believe we have 6 years to file a claim that shows that the item was defective when we received it, not that it developed a defect. Before 6 months it is assumed that if a defect develops, it was there when it was delivered. After 6 months the onus is on the person who brought it to show that the defect was there when it was delivered. Importantly - there is no expectation in law that the item has to last 6 years.
- loftyal 5y ago
  This. I have a 4 year old MBP with a screen issue that's obviously not my fault. Apple refuses to fix it.

nicce 5y ago

The most relesellers in my country give 3-5 years of warranty for MacBooks. I guess things are good here.

bigbob2 5y ago

My significant other owned a 2011 MBP and experienced the same thing... She didn't know about the recall and I didn't get a chance to investigate and find out until after the recall window was closed. I can't really avoid using a Mac for work, but for personal use it has definitely trained me to avoid Apple products when at all possible. She would concur with you that her 2011 MBP was a terrible investment.

chadcmulligan 5y ago

> a 3 year warranty by default come to australia, consumer guarantees give you a 3 year warranty. In fact my MacBook Pro gave up the ghost a few weeks after the 3 years had expired, Apple replaced the bits under warranty.

greenknight 5y ago
Yep and they still try to push applecare+ onto customers.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

IIRC you can now buy AppleCare as a subscription which you could possibly try gamle - buy only after something breaks..? Or just buy 1 year a piece.

zippergz 5y ago

It's just anecdata, but I've been using Mac laptops since the mid 90s, have never bought AppleCare, and have never regretted that. I've never had an out of warranty repair. On a couple I have replaced the battery myself after several years, at a cost much lower than what AppleCare would have been on that one machine. Yes, it's possible that some day I will end up with a lemon that needs a ton of work. But I think that over 20 years of savings on not buying AppleCare more than covers it (I would have bought a new machine before sinking in anywhere near $10k in repairs).