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"up to know that basically everyone had seen you naked and you had no ability to consent." He was a baby. What kind of splitting hair intellectual rhetoric ar

"up to know that basically everyone had seen you naked and you had no ability to consent." He was a baby. What kind of splitting hair intellectual rhetoric are we people getting into? All of my uncles, aunts, neighbours, neighbours at the cottage, babysitters, people at the park saw me to some extent 'naked' at the park. Little girls considerably more often since they go topless. It's the most normal thing on the planet and it's been that way for thousands of years for everyone. I'm hoping is just an odd HN style discussion and not some kind of weird new social normalization that's happened very quickly, in one generation as an artifact of ultra urbane helicopter parenting. This is not a debate: his parents will have, or not, consented to him being in a bit of commercial artwork. His being naked as baby is irrelevant. That's it.

dbingham 5y ago
The issue is not his nudity so much as the commercial use of his image.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  Did you even read the lede? > Spencer Elden, the man who was photographed as a baby on the album cover for Nirvana's Nevermind, is suing the band alleging sexual exploitation. The article goes on: > He also alleges the nude image constitutes child pornography. > However, Elden's lawyer, Robert Y. Lewis, argues that the inclusion of the dollar bill (which was superimposed after the photograph was taken) makes the minor seem "like a sex worker". It amazes me just how many HN users just say stuff without reading anything. The person being replied to also doesn't deserve the downvotes; it's an entirely valid point that the general population is likely to agree with. (not saying you downvoted in particular... I just find it baffling.)
- jollybean 5y ago
  Maybe this is perhaps one of the greatest artistic ironies ever? The 'barely born baby, into the world chasing the dollar on the devil's rod' ... has come to life in the 'baby adult demanding money for something he's probably not owed, making hyperbolic claims of 'child porn'. I think if he were not naked, he would have a much harder time with the 'sex crime' hyperbole. Nudity isn't porn.
ravenstine 5y ago
Sadly, I think it's a rapid change in at least urbanized predominantly white societies. This is why recently I've been loving watching old videos of people living their everyday lives before technology oversocialized us. Here's a recent one that I happened to find because I was researching the Boston accent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omVFxtbZoyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omVFxtbZoyw These days you'd think all these people were just actors in some 80's movie, but they were real people all walking up to each other and interacting organically. Nobody is staring down at phones, everyone is socially confident, kids are out playing, adults show affection towards the children, and so on. Some may disapprove of the lifestyle of these urban Boston Italians or certain things they say, but it's one reflection of a different time that really wasn't that long ago. This was before mainstream media scared the shit out of people and convinced them that the world is too dangerous, before people overexposed themselves on social media, before video games addicted children, before adults spent more time with their devices than with their families. Things weren't perfect in the old days by any means, but there were some good things about humanity that we've gradually suppressed in ourselves which we've been losing in a short period of time. Like you, I grew up with a big family where the little ones were sometimes seen naked whether it was when we were running around in the dirt or taking baths together. By a certain age, our parents knew when to start having us to always wear clothes and bathe by ourselves. But there's what I would consider a precious window of innocence in young childhood where kids can exist and be themselves, clothed or not, free of the knowledge of sexuality. My sibling and cousins all were naked at one point or another as young kids and nobody feels scarred or exploited because our elders saw us naked in some vague memory.
indrax 5y ago
We haven't had photography for thousands of years, and it's reasonable to think that we are still adjusting to the implications. It's quite normal for people to be embarrassed when their parents show baby pictures, especially if it involves nudity. It's transplanting the childish innocence onto the person's social present. His parent's consent does not negate the harm done, possibly the opposite.

dbingham 5y ago

The issue is not his nudity so much as the commercial use of his image.

ravenstine 5y ago
Did you even read the lede? > Spencer Elden, the man who was photographed as a baby on the album cover for Nirvana's Nevermind, is suing the band alleging sexual exploitation. The article goes on: > He also alleges the nude image constitutes child pornography. > However, Elden's lawyer, Robert Y. Lewis, argues that the inclusion of the dollar bill (which was superimposed after the photograph was taken) makes the minor seem "like a sex worker". It amazes me just how many HN users just say stuff without reading anything. The person being replied to also doesn't deserve the downvotes; it's an entirely valid point that the general population is likely to agree with. (not saying you downvoted in particular... I just find it baffling.)
jollybean 5y ago
Maybe this is perhaps one of the greatest artistic ironies ever? The 'barely born baby, into the world chasing the dollar on the devil's rod' ... has come to life in the 'baby adult demanding money for something he's probably not owed, making hyperbolic claims of 'child porn'. I think if he were not naked, he would have a much harder time with the 'sex crime' hyperbole. Nudity isn't porn.

ravenstine 5y ago

Sadly, I think it's a rapid change in at least urbanized predominantly white societies. This is why recently I've been loving watching old videos of people living their everyday lives before technology oversocialized us. Here's a recent one that I happened to find because I was researching the Boston accent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omVFxtbZoyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omVFxtbZoyw These days you'd think all these people were just actors in some 80's movie, but they were real people all walking up to each other and interacting organically. Nobody is staring down at phones, everyone is socially confident, kids are out playing, adults show affection towards the children, and so on. Some may disapprove of the lifestyle of these urban Boston Italians or certain things they say, but it's one reflection of a different time that really wasn't that long ago. This was before mainstream media scared the shit out of people and convinced them that the world is too dangerous, before people overexposed themselves on social media, before video games addicted children, before adults spent more time with their devices than with their families. Things weren't perfect in the old days by any means, but there were some good things about humanity that we've gradually suppressed in ourselves which we've been losing in a short period of time. Like you, I grew up with a big family where the little ones were sometimes seen naked whether it was when we were running around in the dirt or taking baths together. By a certain age, our parents knew when to start having us to always wear clothes and bathe by ourselves. But there's what I would consider a precious window of innocence in young childhood where kids can exist and be themselves, clothed or not, free of the knowledge of sexuality. My sibling and cousins all were naked at one point or another as young kids and nobody feels scarred or exploited because our elders saw us naked in some vague memory.

indrax 5y ago

We haven't had photography for thousands of years, and it's reasonable to think that we are still adjusting to the implications. It's quite normal for people to be embarrassed when their parents show baby pictures, especially if it involves nudity. It's transplanting the childish innocence onto the person's social present. His parent's consent does not negate the harm done, possibly the opposite.