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You're right. The first statement speaks to his reliance on others - continuing through his career - to develop the actual ground-breaking technologies that he

by Jedd 5y ago

You're right. The first statement speaks to his reliance on others - continuing through his career - to develop the actual ground-breaking technologies that he was subsequently credited with. That annexation of credit is an awful trait that most of us have experienced, and none of us respect. As to a leader-board of awfulness - we may be missing the point there. Sure, yes, lots of powerful people are awful, but one doesn't excuse the other. I suspect for a lot of free software advocates, idealists if you will, it's hard (and more importantly, pointless) to try to measure who was the most awful person in terms of compromising people's freedoms.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
> That annexation of credit is an awful trait that most of us have experienced, and none of us respect. not sure if I understand you here - you're not suggesting he annexed the credit - he quite clearly shared it or in that quote almost gave it entirely away. >Sure, yes, lots of powerful people are awful, but one doesn't excuse the other. yeah I don't know if most people, given the power, won't be awful some times. Also I'm not sure if almost all people are not awful sometimes, if given the right pressure. So when someone is complaining about the awfulness of any one person I guess I actually want more than anecdotes of how rude they were, considering how awful people can be. (That money thing is one but well, I've also noticed people when they don't have money will sometimes be untrustworthy about it)
- Jedd 5y ago
  I'm not an Apple or Jobs apologist - I'm sure you've noticed - but I can see why someone who was would want to paint each individual example of poor behaviour as isolated, accidental, deeply regretted, not indicative etc - rather than on trend for some deep, persistent, unpleasant character flaws. The absence of any technical brilliance is fairly well documented, and Woz was the first, possibly most famous, person he leveraged / misled (depending how charitable you want to be). So, yes, I am saying he annexed the credit. The quote that we're talking about - musing on how there wouldn't have been an Apple without Woz - was from a 2011 book, where he looks back, from his multi-billionaire perspective, at someone he shafted repeatedly some decades earlier. Who knows the tone of this comment - to me it doesn't feel like a '...and I feel bad about it' type comment, just a casual aside. Mind, Woz was just one of many casualties along the way, too. > So when someone is complaining about the awfulness of any one person I guess I actually want more than anecdotes of how rude they were, considering how awful people can be. The stories of Jobs' awfulness are many and manifest. Start with a web search on 'stories of steve jobs being awful', or go straight to Lisa Brennan-Jobs' book. Arguably every story about someone is by definition an anecdote, so perhaps this won't be enough for you. In any case, the guy certainly did NOT 'completely transform modern life and changed the human trajectory for everyone on the planet, multiple times', seemed to have no notable skills beyond showmanship, and was awful.
- Jedd 5y ago
  And lo, just 13 days on, there's (yet another) story on HN [1] about Steve Jobs being an arsehole. "Alvy Ray Smith helped invent computer animation as we know it—then got royally shafted by Steve Jobs" The article paints Jobs, in much more detail than the byline above, as an extremely toxic personality. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28422777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28422777

by Jedd 5y ago

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

> That annexation of credit is an awful trait that most of us have experienced, and none of us respect. not sure if I understand you here - you're not suggesting he annexed the credit - he quite clearly shared it or in that quote almost gave it entirely away. >Sure, yes, lots of powerful people are awful, but one doesn't excuse the other. yeah I don't know if most people, given the power, won't be awful some times. Also I'm not sure if almost all people are not awful sometimes, if given the right pressure. So when someone is complaining about the awfulness of any one person I guess I actually want more than anecdotes of how rude they were, considering how awful people can be. (That money thing is one but well, I've also noticed people when they don't have money will sometimes be untrustworthy about it)

Jedd 5y ago
I'm not an Apple or Jobs apologist - I'm sure you've noticed - but I can see why someone who was would want to paint each individual example of poor behaviour as isolated, accidental, deeply regretted, not indicative etc - rather than on trend for some deep, persistent, unpleasant character flaws. The absence of any technical brilliance is fairly well documented, and Woz was the first, possibly most famous, person he leveraged / misled (depending how charitable you want to be). So, yes, I am saying he annexed the credit. The quote that we're talking about - musing on how there wouldn't have been an Apple without Woz - was from a 2011 book, where he looks back, from his multi-billionaire perspective, at someone he shafted repeatedly some decades earlier. Who knows the tone of this comment - to me it doesn't feel like a '...and I feel bad about it' type comment, just a casual aside. Mind, Woz was just one of many casualties along the way, too. > So when someone is complaining about the awfulness of any one person I guess I actually want more than anecdotes of how rude they were, considering how awful people can be. The stories of Jobs' awfulness are many and manifest. Start with a web search on 'stories of steve jobs being awful', or go straight to Lisa Brennan-Jobs' book. Arguably every story about someone is by definition an anecdote, so perhaps this won't be enough for you. In any case, the guy certainly did NOT 'completely transform modern life and changed the human trajectory for everyone on the planet, multiple times', seemed to have no notable skills beyond showmanship, and was awful.
Jedd 5y ago
And lo, just 13 days on, there's (yet another) story on HN [1] about Steve Jobs being an arsehole. "Alvy Ray Smith helped invent computer animation as we know it—then got royally shafted by Steve Jobs" The article paints Jobs, in much more detail than the byline above, as an extremely toxic personality. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28422777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28422777